Coffeehouse Thread

56 posts

has Anders commented on WinRT?

Back to Forum: Coffeehouse
  • TexasToast

    , felix9 wrote

    *snip*

    Nitpicking, Bartok does have a option "nullgc" which means no collector Smiley
    The only problem is your memory wont be reclaimed, but if you dont allocate much its OK I think. Big Smile

    Even with C/C++ in embedded projects we do not dynamically allocate memory.   We try to statically get everything setup on initialization.  This is much safer and allows software to run without leaks and memory concerns.    We need to run 5 9's for reliability and cannot take this risk.  I was hoping that the Micro .net framework would take this approach with turning off the GC as an option.

  • davewill

    , Charles wrote

    *snip*

    In terms of more Charles to balance native and .NET content, I've done various interviews that cover .NET 4.5, from GC to JIT to Fx installation. I assume you've watched those pieces?

    Yes.  But this did cause me to rethink what is it that is missing.  Maybe it isn't more Charles type content.  Its up to the elbows in code, design, and whys content.  As an example

    Windows API reference for Metro style apps

    Let's delve into these new APIs.  How about the Windows.Foundation.HResult.  Can that be used anywhere we would have PInvoked into Win32 to get the result or is it only applicable for WinRT api triggered results?  The Windows.UI.Xaml.Controls looks prime for some need to know information from the experts.  Maybe there are some gotchas or different defaults from wpf/silverlight past experiences.

    Alas ... "[This documentation is preliminary and is subject to change.]".  No need to read it and catalog an invalid something in a brain cell.  Maybe it is simply too early to even have a conversation.  Let's hope not because they want apps out in the app store sooner than later I've been hearing.

    Note: C9 does not have a WinRT or Win+RT tag.  Also in reviewing the .NET various tags I know there was a lot more content that I had seen than what was coming up under those tags.  If it helps anyone else Windows+8 was an additional tag that reveals more content.  It isn't in the tags listing that I saw but there is content tagged with it.

  • Harlequin

    , Charles wrote

    *snip*

    If you're an HTML5 developer, then you're all set.

    If only this were true =(

    Unfortunately the learning curve of HTML5 Windows 8 apps is too great, I don't think it will find the adoption Microsoft wanted. And we have first hand experience with this, building an internal Windows 8 app for Microsoft, done in HTML5/WinJS....NOT a fun experience. Our next Windows 8 app is going to be built in Xaml/WinRT, so hopefully a much better experience =)

  • Charles

    @Harlequin: Can you elaborate? Also, XAML/WinRT doesn't mean anything Smiley All Windows 8 modern style apps are WinRT apps... You just mean you'll go the XAML/C# (or C++) route.

    I'd really like to learn more about your HTML5 experience/issues. You can send mail directly to me or just explain in a bit more detail on this thread.

    C

  • Charles

    @LiquidBoy: Well, Bing uses C++ + DX + XAML, too... There are several C++ apps in the store, as well. In fact, there's quite a nice balance and this shows that the overall approach is effective and enables a broad range of developers to build apps for Windows.

    C

  • Harlequin

    You can view most of my threads on the MSDN forums:
    http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/user/threads?user=Harlequin
    ..since the threads I created or participate in are mostly trying to figure things out.

    I've had two guys from the Visual Studio team wanting to chat with me too, but they never connected.

    Doing web for 12 years myself, the HTML5/WinJS is simply a way-too-high-learning-curve-nightmare to use. My main focus was front-end, and my team lead was on the back end and he knows 10x more than I do, and he was struggling to hack things to get them working.

    I've been making stuff for Microsoft for 12 years(we're a vendor), and I've never disliked many projects in those 12 years...this was one of the first ones I'd categorize as "horrible", and that includes working on lots of SharePoint stuff =)

  • Charles

    @Harlequin: Really nice to see such great attention paid by MSFT employees in that forum. Your questions at least got answered! Smiley

    C

  • Harlequin

    Yeah, the MSDN guys are quite thorough, even if it takes a day or two sometimes to get an answer.

    Problem with Windows 8 development is lack of resources...mainly MVPs. Half the times when I needed answers to something, the #1 search result was my post on MSDN...#saddeveloperpanda

    Problem is I think MVPs are getting the cold shoulder from Microsoft on getting answers themselves.

  • Charles

    , Harlequin wrote

    Problem with Windows 8 development is lack of resources...mainly MVPs. Half the times when I needed answers to something, the #1 search result was my post on MSDN...#saddeveloperpanda



    So, http://dev.windows.com documentation is lacking? Where do MVPs fit into technical documentation, samples, etc? Just curious... They are typically great at answering questions on forums, but why not go to the source re learning how to do things? Is the documentation that bad?

    C

  • Harlequin

    Check out this page, the ListView.swipeBehaviour:
    http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/apps/hh700730.aspx
    This is damn near a blank page...tell you damn near nothing.

    Now look at this old-skool MSDN page on the asp:dropdownlist:
    http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/0dzka5sf(v=vs.71).aspx">http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/0dzka5sf(v=vs.71).aspx
    Tons of stuff...remarks, how to use things, lots of sample code.

    Damn near every page in the "Dev Center - Metro style apps" site is completely useless. I spent time for each of my issues when we were building out WIndows 8 HTML5 app to look at the Dev Center first...then Google second, which brings up nothing, then the only resource is the Metro forums.

    There is absolutely zero evangelism for Windows 8 development.

  • Bas

    I have to agree with Harlequin on the MSDN documentation. I find that there's lots of videos, articles and tutorials out there, but it's not on MSDN. The WinRT library documentation is obviously just automatically generated from the WinRT library's XML documentation. If it wasn't, then someone could have saved themselves a hell of a lot of time because the result is the same: short one sentence descriptions of types and members, but zero information on how to use all that stuff.

    The thing is that all those articles and tutorials elsewhere are fine for getting to grips with the basics, but when you want to dive deeper and read up on some type you found, MSDN is useless.

    Take ISupportIncrementalLoading, for instance. I wanted to find out how to make a gridview load more items as the user reaches the end, but all the forum posts and tutorials on the matter seemed confusing. I could gather that the ISupportIncrementalLoading.LoadMoreItemsAsync() method was key, so I decided to read up on it. All the MSDN documentation tells me is what the interface's member's are (which Visual Studio could already tell me) and that it "Specifies a calling contract for collection views that support incremental loading." That's too general and too vague. The LoadMoreItemsAsync() documentation simply says "Initializes incremental loading from the view." No information on the weird IAsyncOperation<LoadMoreItemsResult> return value. No information on how to implement this thing, exactly. Just very basic descriptions of the types and members that IntelliSense already gives me.

    Same with implementing drag and drop: the XAML editor told me about UIElement.AllowDrop, but the MSDN page simply says "Gets or sets a value that determines whether this UIElement can be a drop target for purposes of drag-and-drop operations." So, great, I kind of gathered that. So what do I do when it's set to true? I don't know, because the MSDN page doesn't bother to tell me about it. I just sort of assume there's a Drop event, and so there is, but that documentation also doesn't tell me a damned thing about wat to do when the event is fired. How do I figure out what has been dropped onto the UIElement? Can I tell wether it has been dragged there by mouse or by finger? Does it fire once for every item that has been dropped or is there a collection of all simultaneously dropped items that I can look at somewhere? MSDN sure won't tell me. I have to click on through to the DragEventHandler Delegate, for which the documentation is also completely barebones, and then onto the DragEventArgs page. Here, I find a Data property. Success! I can probably figure out what has been dropped in there. Oh wait, the documentation is again useless. All I can tell from it is that the Data property is of the weird DataPackage type. And what do you know, a Remarks section! But wait, it only supports text, RTF, HTML, Bitmap and StorageItems by default? Why can't I just get the object that was bound to whatever has been dragged from there? Maybe I can, because the documentation tells me that "It also has methods to support custom data formats". So how do those work? MSDN won't bother to tell me. It stops just short of giving me the finger. In the end, I just didn't bother with AllowDrop and the DataPackage and just rolled my own implementation using the ManipulationStarted, ManipulationDelta and ManipulationCompleted events. For which, incidentally, the WPF documentation has a whole section about what to do in this event and how to use the eventargs, where to go for more information about manipulations and a pointer to a walkthrough for touch enabled applications. The WinRT documentation has basic intellisense data and a single "Using manipulation events" link hidden in the See Also section.

    The MSDN documentation sucks. It sucks hard. The most useful sources of information on Metro app development for me have been the MSDN forums, google, and just poking around in intellisense. Apart from a few how to articles there is nothing on MSDN that you can't already find with intellisense, and that's not nearly enough.

  • Charles

    I'll pass along this feedback to the doc folks.

    C

  • Charles
  • Bas

    @Charles: Thanks. I always find the MSDN docs pretty informative so it's too bad to see the WinRT documentation so barren.

  • Ion Todirel

    @SteveRichter:sure, but there's still things in this world that need all the raw power they can get, that philosophy wouldn't work for them, i.e. video games

  • Charles

    @Bas: I've been on email with the doc team. They are very responsive and helpful.

    I'm extending a thank you from the doc team to all of you who commented on the doc state (very useful feedback!).

    Do stay tuned. It will get much better Smiley

    C

  • Harlequin

    Less about the docs, more about the evangelism.

    Even if Bas couldn't find details on MSDN, which is the case most of the time I'm sure for all of us, there is usually a blog post by someone awesome where they were doing exactly what you were trying to do. Right now, with Windows 8, the only way to figure out complex things, wether it be back-end or front-end, you need to hit the forums, where sometimes you get an answer in 2 hours, sometimes 2 days. Not the way to go when we have deadlines in real life.

  • Charles

    @Harlequin: Not sure what to say... Noted. We'll do better!
    C

Comments closed

Comments have been closed since this content was published more than 30 days ago, but if you'd like to continue the conversation, please create a new thread in our Forums, or Contact Us and let us know.