Coffeehouse Thread

18 posts

it looks like the WPF team still exists, after all

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  • User profile image
    felix9

    Some people said that there is no one working on WPF any more, and the team has been disbanded

    http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/572877-Silverlight--HTML5-and-WPF

    now the wpf team is blogging again,

    http://blogs.msdn.com/b/wpf/archive/2010/10/21/future-of-the-wpf-ribbon.aspx

    and

    We are going through our planning for our next version of WPF and we are trying to figure out what we should do next.

  • User profile image
    magicalclick

    I don't think WPF will ever go away. Some peoeple think Silverlight is taking over, but, IMO, Silverlight is a based on WPF anyway. They had this dream about protable WPF and silverlight is their solution. But, the whole thing revolves around WPF actually. You can expected to see new features on WPF before it is ported to SilverLight.

    So far, there are some old school WinForm lover / WPF bashers, but, WPF is definitly going to stay as a big major player.

    I love WPF Big Smile

    Leaving WM on 5/2018 if no apps, no dedicated billboards where I drive, no Store name.
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    vesuvius

    I would guess that the WPF team have all been working on WP7 and now that it has been released, they are concentrating on it again.

    Their ribbon came 2.5 years too late, and I have worked on a few projects that opted for poorly implemented versions, where the implementors thought that it was most important to have a ribbon, rather than something that led to maintainable codebases.

    I am currently working on a scientific research application, and we needed a WPF chart and guess what? Like the Ribbon, the WPF chart has been beta for a year and a half now, so there is no way we can use it. What is worse is that all the major "partners" cannot create a WPF chart that renders 2000 floating points of data in less that 5 seconds. I have tried them all and they are slow so we have had to regress to a winforms version that renders the same data in milliseconds.

    John Papa recently showed some awsome Silverlight themes that ought to be available for WPF, but, guess what? It will be another year or two before these themes arer availalble.

    They really need to sort out the end to end availablity of controls for WPF as Silverlight. I am seeing more and more projects at the moment using WPF in research and financial sectors, but developers are having to fight the technology at times, and most of the third party tools suck, including Devexpress whose WPF controls like charts and grouping grids are piteously slow.

     

  • User profile image
    exoteric

    Now that VS is based on WPF, it would be exceptionally poor timing to exercise neglect.

  • User profile image
    Polymorphic​Ninja

    @magicalclick:

    Winforms... WPF... they will always be around for the sake of legacy applications.

    However, as you probably know already, there's a lot of effort going toward WPF/Silverlight convergence.  I'd guess the introduction of non-portable code such as COM in Silverlight 4 is a stepping stone/litmus test toward that.

    If the remainder of the xaml incompatibilities between WPF and Silverlight are addressed in Silverlight 5 and there's a straight forward way to late bind a .Net assembly (via dynamic keyword perhaps?), it reveals a much clearer migration path for porting current WPF applications.. 

  • User profile image
    TommyCarlier

    Evernote switched to WPF in version 3.5, but for version 4.0 they switched to C++:

    Evernote 4 is a major departure from Evernote 3.5 in every way. While 3.5 added tons of great new features, there were some problems we simply couldn’t fix: the blurry fonts, slow startup times, large memory footprint, and poor support for certain graphics cards were all issues that the technology behind 3.5 (Windows .net and WPF) was incapable of resolving. As a result, we ended up chasing down platform bugs rather than adding the great features our users wanted.

    So we decided to start over from scratch, with fast, native C++ that we knew we could rely on. As you’ll see, the results are amazing. This new version will set a foundation for rapid improvement.

  • User profile image
    Maddus Mattus

    Lack of controls is frustrating indeed.

    3rd party controls are just not up to par and it takes too long to write your own.

    My little pet wpf project is almost dead too, I need more time!

     

  • User profile image
    magicalclick

    , TommyCarlier wrote

    Evernote switched to WPF in version 3.5, but for version 4.0 they switched to C++:

    *snip*

    Great, that's see if they have buffer overflow.

    Anyway, from that screenshot, I do not believe there is a performance problem. Unless they have 10k logical elements hidden? I have done 40k nodes of logical elements in my app before (it contains 600x600 photo each). The performance can indeed be really slow. But, 40k of photo nodes is insdeed bad to begin with anyway. Strangly silverlight pivot table is so much scalible than mine. I need more IQ, eekkk.

    Leaving WM on 5/2018 if no apps, no dedicated billboards where I drive, no Store name.
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  • User profile image
    Sven Groot

    @magicalclick: I'm curious if and how they handle high-DPI and system font changes, something WPF gives you for free.

  • User profile image
    rhm

    , magicalclick wrote

    Anyway, from that screenshot, I do not believe there is a performance problem. Unless they have 10k logical elements hidden? I have done 40k nodes of logical elements in my app before (it contains 600x600 photo each). The performance can indeed be really slow. But, 40k of photo nodes is insdeed bad to begin with anyway. Strangly silverlight pivot table is so much scalible than mine. I need more IQ, eekkk.

    I don't know what the reasons are behind it, but Evernote 3.5 on Windows is damn slow. It might well be their fault but people are going to draw the conclusion that it's down to WPF, or worse, down to .NET in general. Pretty sad.

    Of course C++ native apps can be fast or slow. Outlook for example is an absolute dog of an application performance-wise. Whereas the Spotify client application is so fast it's amazing.

  • User profile image
    SteveRichter

    @felix9:

    Are they going to make it easier to create a bulleted list in WPF/Silverlght?

     

  • User profile image
    androidi

    I don't think WPF app cold-startup perf problems will go away (well SSDs fix half the problem) without some smart preloading, that goes like "if user installs WPF app, then always load a sequential memory image (like hibernation file) of the wpf files and if the app is run daily then add the app files to the image".

    SuperFetch should help here but like I've said before, it was practically turned off in 7 (unless you use same app every single day, then it can "learn" but go just few days without using that app and it forgets it despite there being memory available to preload) and in Vista it was annoying users because it didn't load "sequential memory images" but rather loaded single files all over the place including hdd's with no applications installed on them causing a lot of hdd noise after login and application close.

    Now even with SSD's theres still the app initialization, hibernation solves that but last I checked it took time in relation to the size of physical memory rather than what applications you actually use and what are the relevant data types to hibernate. Eg. if some app loads a large video file into memory for editing, I don't want that loaded during system startup even if the app was suspended.

    I think SuperFetch in Vista would have been well received if they hadn't made the mistake of loading every random video the user watched in WMP yesterday during startup as if I was going to watch yesterdays videos again today.

  • User profile image
    Turbodad

    Some suggestions for the team:

    1) Fix blurry fonts in WPF 3.5. Saying "they are fixed in WPF 4" is unacceptable.

    2) Make WPF, you know, usable from the developer's point of view. Right now it is bloody PITA.

    3) Replace XAML with a DSL that is not XML based and that you can actually use without tearing your hair out.

    You can look at Cocoa for a little insight of how to properly design APIs.

  • User profile image
    Maddus Mattus

    @SteveRichter:Learn to use and manipulate the ItemsControl, it's the shizzl of WPF

  • User profile image
    SteveRichter

    , Maddus Mattus wrote

    @SteveRichter:Learn to use and manipulate the ItemsControl, it's the shizzl of WPF

    you mean something like this?  ( from StackOverflow)   I appreciate the power of WPF, but I feel I have to emerse myself in it for weeks at a time to be able to use it.  The HTML/CSS version of the bulleted list is a lot easier to use.

        <ItemsControl Name="lstScripts">              <ItemsControl.ItemTemplate> 
                   
    <DataTemplate> 
                       
    <BulletDecoratorWidth="Auto"> 
                           
    <BulletDecorator.Bullet> 
                               
    <EllipseFill="White"Stroke="Black"StrokeThickness="1"Width="8"Height="8"/> 
                           
    </BulletDecorator.Bullet> 
                           
    <TextBlock> 
                               
    <Hyperlink> 
                                   
    <TextBlockText="{Binding Path=Name}"/> 
                               
    </Hyperlink> 
                           
    </TextBlock> 
                       
    </BulletDecorator> 
                   
    </DataTemplate> 
               
    </ItemsControl.ItemTemplate> 
           
    </ItemsControl> 


  • User profile image
    felix9

    Well, just noticed there is a WPF session in the PDC, so lets wait and see

    WPF Today and Tomorrow

    Rob Relyea

    Drilling deep into where Windows Presentation Foundation (WPF) has been, and where it is going. During this session we'll share our focus areas for WPF today and tomorrow. We focus on several key topics for WPF Application builders, as seen through examples from the building of Microsoft WebMatrix. Among other topics, we'll touch on issues around integration of different UI technologies, our new Ribbon, and positioning with Silverlight.

  • User profile image
    magicalclick

    @SteveRichter:

    Or you say,

    <StackPanel id="BulletList" template="myBulletListCSSLikeTemplate">

    <itemcontrol ... />

    </StackPanel>

    Leaving WM on 5/2018 if no apps, no dedicated billboards where I drive, no Store name.
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  • User profile image
    SteveRichter

    , magicalclick wrote

    @SteveRichter:

    Or you say,

    <StackPanel id="BulletList" template="myBulletListCSSLikeTemplate">

    <itemcontrol ... />

    </StackPanel>

    ok, thanks.  I will try that.

     

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