Coffeehouse Thread

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8.1  (why?)

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  • User profile image
    elmer

    , evildictait​or wrote

    *snip*

    I think you are confusing your terms. WinRT is the "modern" or metro APIs.

    Yes, I meant Windows-RT as opposed to Windows-8

    Both are unsatisfactory terms... Windows-ARM vs. Windows-x86 is probably more what I meant.

  • User profile image
    bondsbw

    , elmer wrote

    IMO the answer is simpler - WinRT should not have a desktop and should not run Desktop apps at all, while Win8 should only have a desktop, and should run Modern/Metro apps in windows.

    Microsoft doesn't care about that opinion.  Sorry, it's just the truth.

    Microsoft recognizes that tablets, and by extension future PCs, live and die by their app marketplace.  Microsoft wants (needs) the Windows Store to build itself up quickly, and that's much easier since developers know the Windows Store will be built into every future PC.

    The great thing is that you can stick with Windows 7 for quite a long time if you want.  You can get third party tools to make Windows 8.* more of a desktop-only OS.  You have options; stop complaining because those complaints are falling on deaf ears.

  • User profile image
    elmer

    , bondsbw wrote

    *snip*

    Microsoft doesn't care about that opinion.  Sorry, it's just the truth.

    Microsoft recognizes that tablets, and by extension future PCs, live and die by their app marketplace.  Microsoft wants (needs) the Windows Store to build itself up quickly, and that's much easier since developers know the Windows Store will be built into every future PC.

    The great thing is that you can stick with Windows 7 for quite a long time if you want.  You can get third party tools to make Windows 8.* more of a desktop-only OS.  You have options; stop complaining because those complaints are falling on deaf ears.

    Huh? I'm not complaining about anything, I'm just expressing an opinion. I fully acknowledge it's most unlikely MS will alter their product based on my opinion, but it's still my opinion. 

     

  • User profile image
    bondsbw

    @elmer:  I have no qualms with expressing your opinion, but that opinion has been posted time and time again on this forum and in blogs and other discussion groups.  It makes me think that the point isn't to express an opinion, but to attempt to post it enough for it to stick and force Microsoft to respond.

    It won't stick, no matter how much it is posted.  It's directly against Microsoft's interests.  It would be more effective for people with this opinion to rally around ideas that are more compatible with Microsoft's goals, while still driving the underlying point.

    For instance, I don't push to return to the Start menu.  That horse is dead.  But I throw out ideas like bringing the MRU applications list back.  I push to allow the Start screen to be placed in a snap-view pane.  This combination almost gets us back to a Start menu without moving away from Microsoft's end goals.

  • User profile image
    elmer

    @bondsbw: Perhaps, if an opinion has been expressed time and time again on this forum and in blogs and other discussion groups, it's because people are unhappy.

    "MS are not listening, so move along..."  sorry that is not going to work.

    Sure, MS are perfectly entitled to ignore feedback, and bet that the customer will change their mind, but at the moment this is looking like a bad bet.

    Customers are not interested in helping MS achieve their goals, they are simply wanting to achieve their own. If MS are not interested in providing products customers want to buy, then the customers will more likely go elsewhere.

  • User profile image
    magicalclick

    @bondsbw: that is also a dead end, aka in conflict with MS's interest. That's why they didn't build it in the first place. Start Screen is user defined MRU. Start Screen is not Menu, which is also quite clear. It isn't called Start Menu nor Start Snap. Your attempt is futile. Aka, give up on asking Start Menu and MRU back, it isn't MS's interest.

    Leaving WM on 5/2018 if no apps, no dedicated billboards where I drive, no Store name.
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  • User profile image
    jamie

    , bondsbw wrote

    For instance, I don't push to return to the Start menu.  That horse is dead.  

    good back on topic - so we need running apps in startmenu - to get rid of startBAR

     

    could we maybe have some comments on that idea?  it makes metro more takeover-of-desktop worthy

    ?

  • User profile image
    kettch

    , jamie wrote

    *snip*

    so we need running apps in startmenu - to get rid of startBAR

     

    Maybe what you want is some kind of running indicator on the application's tile? It would be nice if metro apps showed up in the task bar, but I sometimes have enough of them running that it would end up conflicting with all the desktop applications on my taskbar. I just need bigger monitors so my taskbar can get longer.

  • User profile image
    elmer

    I have been using this, and just running everything from the desktop.

    Works for me, but YMMV.

  • User profile image
    magicalclick

    @elmer: that thing pretty much make Sinofsky's StartMenu 2.0 back to StartMenu 1.0 , except StartMenu 2.0 has no Shutdown button, so the telemetry is even lower than before.

    Leaving WM on 5/2018 if no apps, no dedicated billboards where I drive, no Store name.
    Last modified
  • User profile image
    TexasToast

    Stardock gives a lot of users what should have been there in the first place.   Maybe Sinofsky owns a chunk of that company and his plan was to enrich himself.   Either that or he was just arrogant and made some bad choices.   Someone mentioned it was like coke changing their formula and having coke drinkers rebel.   I have been using windows 8.1 for almost a year and the full screen switching is still annoying.   It is funny how my youngest son actually feels sorry for me and wonders why I put up with it.   What I wonder, which is starting to concern me, is why Microsoft does not give many users what they want like the Stardock application?   It is really showing a lack of strong leadership.   Someone has to come in who really understands the user, the developer, and where they make there money (LOB).  And like others have said,  big corporations will not move to Windows 8 if changes are not made.

  • User profile image
    bondsbw

    , magicalclick wrote

    @bondsbw: that is also a dead end, aka in conflict with MS's interest. 

    You say this yet give no business justification.  It's not in Microsoft's business interests to hate on a list.  They use lists in other metro locations, including All Apps which can now be made your primary Start screen.

    And by definition, MRU is a calculated list, not user-defined.  So the functionality I want isn't there, and I can't see any business justification not to put it there other than the cost of implementation.

  • User profile image
    bondsbw

    , kettch wrote

    *snip*

    Maybe what you want is some kind of running indicator on the application's tile?

    Agreed.  Combined with a MRU list, voila... jamie gets his way!

  • User profile image
    magicalclick

    @bondsbw: show me the business reason behind your idea and elmer's idea. They are both removed from win8 on purpose.

    Leaving WM on 5/2018 if no apps, no dedicated billboards where I drive, no Store name.
    Last modified
  • User profile image
    Sven Groot

    Windows 8.1 at least allows you to sort the all apps view by most used, and can open in that view by default if you want.

    I'd still like it if there was a way to add "special groups" to the start screen. You could have a group that's an MRU list, or a group that shows live previews of running applications.

    Even better: make it extensible, so developers can create their own groups. For example, imagine a a group that shows thumbnails for the most recent videos in my YouTube subscriptions. It'd be live tiles on steroids, a way to customize the start screen for developers that's not limited to showing one tile but can define a list of related tiles.

  • User profile image
    magicalclick

    @Sven Groot: I like the idea to have collapsed running icons in the running group where I move to the front of the screen. With one exception, the running list is unstable, aka XP style instead of Win7 style. There is still a delay on looking for my running app in the running list. And you will get other niners telling you the app isn't running, they are only temporarily suspended. Thus, they should not appear in the list. Another drawback is, you still need to launch the StartScreen everytime you want to switch an app without using alt+tab or touch screen swipe. While still not a Taskbar replacement and still not useful after ModernMix, it does work well on less serious working environment and I do like to see it implemented.

    Leaving WM on 5/2018 if no apps, no dedicated billboards where I drive, no Store name.
    Last modified
  • User profile image
    bondsbw

    @magicalclick: Both ideas, 1) removing metro on desktops and 2) adding the MRU list, have a business justification of pleasing more customers.

    But I showed that there is a clear business justification not to do #1.  Nobody has shown that there is a clear business justification not to do #2.  That's the difference.

  • User profile image
    bondsbw

    @Sven Groot:  You know... I knew about that but I could have sworn that the "Most Used" sort only would show modern apps.  I tried it again and I was mistaken, it includes desktop and modern apps.  Thanks for pointing it out again.

    I love the idea of special groups.  Microsoft would probably want them to be in-house; I assume (but could be wrong) that the Start screen runs as a single process and running third-party code inside it would be a security risk.  The Start screen would need to run third party code as separate processes, similar to a window manager... but it could be done.

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