Coffeehouse Thread

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  • User profile image
    bondsbw

    @magicalclick:  You are seriously stating to me, in paraphrase, "Find a source that states that Microsoft wants to stay in business."

    Here ya go:  http://www.microsoft.com/.

    Your turn.

  • User profile image
    magicalclick

    , bondsbw wrote

    @magicalclick:  You are seriously stating to me, in paraphrase, "Find a source that states that Microsoft wants to stay in business."

    Here ya go:  http://www.microsoft.com/.

    Your turn.

    that's proves nothing. Anyway, read previous post since that was posted after your post. And no, i get bored with this game. You can be lazy and avoid finding an evidence. I wasn't really looking for one.

    Leaving WM on 5/2018 if no apps, no dedicated billboards where I drive, no Store name.
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  • User profile image
    bondsbw

    magicalclick wrote

    The reason I demand you to provide evidence because you dismiss other ideas just because that's is not your idea. We are supposed to respect each others idea without being a technical jerk who demands unrealistic data to support every single idea when that idea is not supported by you.

    I respect every idea on this forum, but I get weary of the same thing being repeated and repeated, and repeated and repeated, and repeated and repeated... when it is falling on deaf ears.

    This forum is filled with posts by people crying to return to a familiar interface, and there are solutions for that.  Just because they aren't provided by Microsoft, but by a third party vendor, so what?

    Third party solutions helped Windows become what it is today.  Many of the customizations that people tout in Android are provided by third parties.  The entire concept of an app ecosystem depends on third party solutions.  So again, why all the complaining about issues that third party developers have solved?

    I'm more concerned with those things that third-party developers can't fix... that's what I want to see discussed on this forum.

  • User profile image
    magicalclick

    @bondsbw: then I agree. No one should complain, about XP taskbar if Win7 didn't make the upgrade, because after all, it has been solves by the same 3rd party vendor. Your MRU likely supported by product provided by the same vendor, go try it out. You are tired of listening to it, they are tired of waiting. And apparently waiting is dumb when one should just buy a competing product that works better. Loyalty is for fools.

    Leaving WM on 5/2018 if no apps, no dedicated billboards where I drive, no Store name.
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    DeathBy​VisualStudio

    , evildictait​or wrote

    *snip*

    I don't think anyone (other than DeathByVisualStudio) is suggesting that metro is a replacement for the desktop and that the desktop is going away anytime soon. It's clearly not - there are too many things that can't be done in metro. But that doesn't mean that Metro is all bad, or that business customers don't want it.

    I think you have misunderstood me EvilD and I'd appreciate it if when you refer to my ideas that you do so more accurately.

    I don't think the Windows 8 Store Apps environment is a replacement for the desktop nor do I believe the desktop is going away any time soon. IMO, Microsoft believes the Windows 8 Store Apps environment is the future of Windows and as such will not be investing in the desktop and its development technologies unless they benefit WinRT is some way. Like VB6 the desktop will still run on Windows but Microsoft won't be investing in it. In that sense the desktop and its related technologies are dead.

    Unrelated response directed at no one:

    I'm am delighted to read all of these great ideas to add MRU lists to the start screen. I'm am also happy to see that folks suggesting them aren't being labeled as someone who is anti-Microsoft, ignorant, or otherwise. Maybe there is some hope for C9 after all...

    If we all believed in unicorns and fairies the world would be a better place.
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    elmer

    , bondsbw wrote

    *snip*

    No, their goals are to target the masses of home users in order to keep them familiar with the Windows platform.  So, the following conclusions can be made:

    As I wrote before, I don't believe that consumers/home-users want desktop apps at all, and this is why I said that WindowsRT is the product that MS should be using to target that market. These people don't need or want to use full MS-Office or any of the legacy desktop apps. They want a machine running an environment like iOS and Android, with lightweight apps. Compatibility with Office documents is a lever MS can use, but the consumer/home-user doesn't want/need the desktop and/or desktop apps to achieve that.

    The market that wants the desktop environment, and support for legacy apps, is the business market, and they have shown that they are not interested in the Metro/Touch environment. They are a potential market for Metro apps, so long as they can run them on the desktop.

     

  • User profile image
    MasterPi

    , DeathBy​VisualStudio wrote

    In that sense the desktop and its related technologies are dead.

    It's that you're saying the desktop is "dead" rather than "dying" that confuses people into thinking your viewpoint is different from theirs. MS is obviously not focusing on desktop technologies (e.g, WPF isn't going to get anymore major improvements). Desktop stuff will still stay alive so long as there exists a need for desktop applications. When the desktop finally does die will be when metro world and its associated frameworks become so advanced that there would be no point in making a desktop application. But then you look at an application like Visual Studio and realize that such a  funeral won't happen for a long time. And then you can even look at XP to see that nothing really truly dies even if MS makes it a point to kill it off.

  • User profile image
    MasterPi

    , elmer wrote

    *snip*

    As I wrote before, I don't believe that consumers/home-users want desktop apps at all,

    *snip*

    The market that wants the desktop environment, and support for legacy apps, is the business market, and they have shown that they are not interested in the Metro/Touch environment. They are a potential market for Metro apps, so long as they can run them on the desktop.

    But there really isn't a consumer/business split. Executives can be "consumers" - we have desktop applications for a bunch of employees to do their work in, but we're in the process of building metro apps and mobile apps for our business execs and GMs to view the work. They don't want to download an entire desktop application to view stuff and they want to be able to quickly pull up the info whenever they want to, like on a private flight.

    And then you have students who have work to do in matlab and eclipse and a bunch of other tools that do require sitting down with a few windows open and cranking out an assignment.

    It's the tasks that actually drive the need for one environment or another, not your profession or designation.

  • User profile image
    elmer

    @MasterPi:

    , MasterPi wrote

    *snip*

    But there really isn't a consumer/business split.

    *snip*

    I think that is taking me out of context.

    IMHO Consumer/Home market is a target for a dedicated metro environment and is NOT a target for the desktop. This market has already demonstrated that this is what they want, via purchases of iPads and Android tablets. i.e. They are a target for WindowsRT devices, and don't need/want a desktop of any sort.

    However, I didn't say that Consumer/Home is the ONLY target for that platform, and you are quite correct that there are many other applications for the WindowRT platform, provided it has the apps to meet the demands of the users.

    My primary point is that the market for the desktop, legacy apps and advanced services, is the business market. This sector will delay migrating to a metro environment until all of the existing legacy apps and all of the Windows8 services have been migrated to the new environment, and the Metro environment has matured.

    However, MS do not appear to be providing any of them with a product they want to buy.

    Anyway, I think I've labored the point more than enough by now, and I know my comments are not going to change anything, so I'll stop wasting everyone's time with my personal opinions.

  • User profile image
    bondsbw

    , elmer wrote

    IMHO Consumer/Home market is a target for a dedicated metro environment and is NOT a target for the desktop.

    Given those assumptions, then I have no problem with your arguments.  I just disagree with those assumptions.

    Well, I don't entirely disagree.  I think you're ahead of yourself.  Tablets are built as information consumption devices, so any home use that involves Office-style applications (or any type of heavy data entry) doesn't really work well on tablets.  That's today, but perhaps in the next 5 years or so this will turn around and someone will figure out how to bridge that gap and what you said will make much more sense.

    Of course, if the tablet data entry problem is solved, then why will we need the desktop at all?  I guess for legacy apps and for solutions that can't fit within the constraints of the app sandbox.

  • User profile image
    bondsbw

    , DeathBy​VisualStudio wrote

    I'm am delighted to read all of these great ideas to add MRU lists to the start screen. I'm am also happy to see that folks suggesting them aren't being labeled as someone who is anti-Microsoft, ignorant, or otherwise.

    Well, MRU lists aren't really an anti-Microsoft thing.  Suggesting Microsoft do something that will lead to their destruction is.  (But I don't work for Microsoft or have any affiliation, and I can develop on pretty much any platform that wins out, so I don't care all that much... I just like that Microsoft is providing healthy competition in the market.)

  • User profile image
    MasterPi

    @elmer: bondsbw basically summed up my point in his post below yours. It's easy to come to those conclusions if you only see a "business" market and a "home/consumer" market. In that sense, yes...you would market Windows RT to primarily "consumers" and desktop to mostly "business professionals." But if you divide the market into "consumers" and "producers," you do a better job of actually defining the product offerings (because that's really playing to what their strengths are). E.g, Windows RT has great applications in kiosks and machine dashboards (think in factories where the space in aisles is tight). I'd want to play up stuff like that in my marketing of the product, but I can't if I'm constraining my target to mainly a home atmosphere (doesn't matter if it's not the only target...it's still the main one).

    If anything, I don't think a business user or a home user wants to own multiple devices. Being able to use one device for work and consumption sort of makes the transition between the two roles seamless (b/c after all, they're the same user).

  • User profile image
    jamie

    when does an idea become less of an idea and more of a chore to think about.... NOW Wink

     I think i was just saying (to many comments above and beyond) that alt-tab and the startbar (with running icons) is basically just - another side of apps that are not yet open.  So why separate the 2?

    If the goal is total metro - for all - integrate alt-tab / running apps to start (button/screen)

     one place for everything. no more bar.  All devs to metro.

    ?

    ** this quick clarification brought to by me - jimeez! **  Tongue Out

     

    edit: this is just a thought but i just googled photoshop metro and corel metro (just to see if anyone had mocked up what those apps might have looked like) - nothing... and nothing under /images. 

    From what we can collectively gather - a metro app - for the desktop - MIGHT look much like the tablet screen version - but have all the PC options ( flat lines/ bars / colours / stick icons but with right mouse/ tons of regular options / menu flyouts etc)

    to me this is the thing... ms wants metro - made an office that is white on light white (Damn you wearers of glasses! Tongue Out)  and no other "sample" of what a new DESKTOP /metro app might look like

     

    It's as though they said like - metro, man it will be cool... but where is coreldraw metro? (used in desktop mode btw) flat - wider menu? stick icons? inquiring minds want to know! Wink

     

    edit 2:

     

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  • User profile image
    jamie

    ..and yes - all predicated on idea that ALL windows ... in Windows - can be: MOVED, resized, made full screen, made not full screen, 

    sigh  /linus  (from peanuts!) Wink

     

    ok one more: Sausagefreudean!  the new buzz word - they want to not make things - look like real things any more.  that means apples new iOS ui (aka - win ui )

    so... if that is true - then why does much of metro ... look like a magazine / print layout?  going across - not down. i would venture to say that - that emulates an idea from the past - and that new thinking and reading online would go up and down?   its sort of a war between up and down and left and right. i think apple got this one right. 

    enough with the landscape idea.  get back to inbetween / both ways to view

    (there are articles of late illustrating this - in reviews of surface / "only good one way" points

     

    edit 9

    ..the punchline:

     

    so i guess in all those billions of R&D - not one person could come up with a fun way to move windows around - and expand them - on a touch screen?

     

     

    >>>>>>>>NON-OFFICIAL MS RESPONSE >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    " wernt you the guy that posted from 2004 to 2006 about fullscreen and kiosk mode and how we ruined IE by adding a bar to the bottom even when in full screen??"

     

    me:  ...um ya

     

    MS: so now youre complaining that we did everything kiosk / fullscreen - and we even tried to work in your media centre is UI idea??"

     

    me - um ya - but i never meant for you to take away the moving of - or control over - the windows themselves

     

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    WINDOWS IS METRO - METRO IS WINDOWS

    its people!

    i think if you could shake windows tablets - and the tiles would move - or you could play games with them - right there - they would be funner

     

    say what you want about the Dock zooming icons - and album view (forget what the scrolling thing is called) - but those 2 things made iOS cool - those excel tiles need some marketing....

     

    **ya ya the dock wasnt iOS but it was cool

  • User profile image
    MasterPi

    , jamie wrote

     I think i was just saying (to many comments above and beyond) that alt-tab and the startbar (with running icons) is basically just - another side of apps that are not yet open.  So why separate the 2?

    The start menu really should indicate what's open b/c the same tile can't both open a new instance of an app and resume an existing session. There has to be some visual cue to separate the two. I'm okay with the desktop taskbar representing what's open only within the desktop for the sole reasons that metro apps are full screen - the moment you click on one in the taskbar, you'll be thrown out of the desktop.

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