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what W8 is all about

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  • User profile image
    SteveRichter

    Consider that you have to register with MSFT and then pay a $99 annual fee to deploy an app you have written to your windows phone. Consider also that you cannot run the .NET micro framework on a cell phone.

    Something else. Apple is hugely suceessful and profitable despite the fact that the programming languages and frameworks used to code Apple apps are inferior to .NET/C#

    The conclusion is that apps written the old fashioned way, by individuals and organizations which are going to use those apps, don't matter. They don't matter that is to the profitability of the company that produces the platform. They also don't matter much to the popularity of the platform.

    Windows 8, I am guessing, is all about Microsoft's attempt to bring an IPhone like ecosystem/profit center to the PC desktop. Think of the potential for profit to the provider of the desktop if the user runs a desktop app to make a plane or hotel reservation. Or it a desktop app is used to download and view a movie to their home theater system.

    In order for the platform provider to funnel a user's usage of the PC thru its desktop apps, that desktop has to be locked down. At a minimum, a portion of the desktop has to be reserved for apps the platform provider approves of.

    Arguably, there is a conflict between individuals who write and distribute apps the traditional way,.direct from developer to consumer, and the new Apple / desktop lockdown way. The new way enables the owner of the OS to profit from the daily use of the PC.  

     

  • User profile image
    kettch

    @SteveRichter: I've been thinking about this quite a bit, and after seeing the way they may go, I'm actually more likely to try to sell some of the little apps that I've developed over the years. So far the limiting factor has been laziness. I need to build a website, provide download service, provide a payment mechanism. I can't be bothered to do all that. If I have to give Microsoft 30%, then it doesn't really bother me if they basically provide all of those services without me having to do anything.

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    W3bbo

    ,SteveRichter wrote

    Something else. Apple is hugely suceessful and profitable despite the fact that the programming languages and frameworks used to code Apple apps are inferior to .NET/C#

    No.

    (Well, yes and no).

    But as far as multimedia and user-experience is concerned, Apple's frameworks are both olderand ahead of Microsoft's offerings. Common Controls doesn't hold a candle to Aqua. GDI doesn't compare to Quartz and Core Image. WPF is not conducive to a great user-experience because it isn't native (in both sense of the word), doesn't integrate well with the host, and has large initialization delays.

    Objective-C is aiming for feature parity with C#, and you can use C# on OS X and iOS anyway.

  • User profile image
    KDawg

    ,W3bbo wrote

    *snip*

    WPF is not conducive to a great user-experience because it isn't native (in both sense of the word), doesn't integrate well with the host, and has large initialization delays.

    What is host integration?  Is that airspace or something else?  And what are initialization delays?  Is that loading the Fx on startup or something else?

  • User profile image
    W3bbo

    ,KDawg wrote

    What is host integration?  Is that airspace or something else?  And what are initialization delays?  Is that loading the Fx on startup or something else?

    By "host integration" I'm referring to how WPF exists completely independently of whatever preexisting frameworks exist in the host OS: WPF makes no attempt to integrate or use them, instead it re-implements them itself, which gives us applications that "don't seem quite right" because users are given the WPF version of some system feature instead of the original, canonical OS feature or service. One example is the control library: WPF's common controls (textboxes, checkboxes, etc) are all 100% re-implemented (they don't even use the visual styles API so they don't look the same). Another is the file open/save dialogs, or type (text) rendering, or child-window management, this list goes on.

    The "Initialization delays" I speak to refer to the loading times for both the CLR and the WPF components. No matter what I do I can't seem to get it below 3-5 seconds for a completely cold start, which is very jarring if it's for a simple application. Imagine if Notepad.exe had these same delays.

  • User profile image
    JoshRoss

    It would be interesting if you could host a library, that you have written, in an app store, and then have that consumed by another app in the store. You could have a little thing that cost a 10th of a cent per deployment, get a million deployments and end-up ok.

    -Josh

  • User profile image
    KDawg

    @W3bbo:

    ,W3bbo wrote

    *snip*

    By "host integration" I'm referring to how WPF exists completely independently of whatever preexisting frameworks exist in the host OS: WPF makes no attempt to integrate or use them, instead it re-implements them itself, which gives us applications that "don't seem quite right" because users are given the WPF version of some system feature instead of the original, canonical OS feature or service. One example is the control library: WPF's common controls (textboxes, checkboxes, etc) are all 100% re-implemented (they don't even use the visual styles API so they don't look the same). Another is the file open/save dialogs, or type (text) rendering, or child-window management, this list goes on.

    The "Initialization delays" I speak to refer to the loading times for both the CLR and the WPF components. No matter what I do I can't seem to get it below 3-5 seconds for a completely cold start, which is very jarring if it's for a simple application. Imagine if Notepad.exe had these same delays.

    OK, understood.  Regarding the host integration, this is by design.  WPF was supposed to rev faster than Windows and also with lookless controls the idea was that people would style these themselves in most cases.  There weren't even UI guidelines for WPF because it wasn't meant to be constrained to look like Windows proper.  You have to remember when it was being worked on, the common complaint was that everything looked the same on Windows.

    Cold start is too slow.  I think this is something they'll have to fix in Win8.  Whatever Jupiter is will startup at CRT speeds hopefully, and not CLR/WPF speeds.  The iPad startup for everything is amazingly fast.  You'd think there was a 16-core CPU with 32GB of RAM in it.

  • User profile image
    JoshRoss

    *snip*

    Cold start is too slow.  I think this is something they'll have to fix in Win8.  Whatever Jupiter is will startup at CRT speeds hopefully, and not CLR/WPF speeds.  The iPad startup for everything is amazingly fast.  You'd think there was a 16-core CPU with 32GB of RAM in it.

    If an iPad app has even the slightest level of complexity, load time suffers. But most apps are loaded once per boot, and just sit in hibernation awaiting resumption. Although, I do like the snappy resumes.

    -Josh

  • User profile image
    magicalclick

    @JoshRoss:

    Wouldn't that mean, Mango would get around the slower startup problem as well? Then, we should just hope Win8 has Mango feature to hibernate apps before computer shutdown.

    Leaving WM on 5/2018 if no apps, no dedicated billboards where I drive, no Store name.
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