Tech Off Thread

20 posts

Forum Read Only

This forum has been made read only by the site admins. No new threads or comments can be added.

Is there a way to bypass ISPs?

Back to Forum: Tech Off
  • User profile image
    Shark_M

    Hi guys,
    I just want to explore the idea of bypassing ISPs. Generating what can be called a Peer-To-Peer internet service. Where PCs world wide would just work together to communicate and exchange info. It'd be like ISPs but decentralized.

    one can do somehting like bittorrent but this time it acts as shared internet access. Is something like this possible?

  • User profile image
    W3bbo

    Freenet.

  • User profile image
    DCMonkey

    W3bbo wrote:
    Freenet.


    Freenet is a anonymous encrypted p2p file/info sharing network. You would still need to go thru a ISP to get to it.

    I've heard of people setting up long range ad hoc wireless networks or buying plain copper wire runs between two locations in the same locality and setting up their own personal DSL link. You could also go back to modems, BBS, and FidoNet or UUCP, if only for inspiration.

  • User profile image
    W3bbo

    DCMonkey wrote:
    I've heard of people setting up long range ad hoc wireless networks or buying plain copper wire runs between two locations in the same locality and setting up their own personal DSL link. You could also go back to modems, BBS, and FidoNet or UUCP, if only for inspiration.


    Or Optical Fibre? Repeaters and Cable aren't that expensive (and last about 30KM) and have high throughput rates.

  • User profile image
    Shark_M

    yeah but what if you want to browse websites that are in another country? or on the other side of the world?

  • User profile image
    Maurits

    Sounds like what you need is an anonymizer.

  • User profile image
    Shark_M

    Maurits wrote:
    Sounds like what you need is an anonymizer.


    well, how will that bypass ISPs?

    Like dont have to pay anything for ISP. Like no subscription.

    Like Dialup to a peer machine, and the peer machine would dialup to others and so on. You end up with a network. And no one in the network have to pay to a centralized ISP server anything simply becaue they are not using it.

    Is a technology like this possible? using existing phonelines and things like that?


    Anonymizer only uses proxy. But what guarantees that someone is sniffing your packets? ISPs can sniff your packets because it goes through their servers.

    Only way to prevent that is to do Crypto on your communications. But that can be broken.

    If tomorrow we use a new protocol that implements the SSL technology does that make the internet spoof - safe? If so why does ISPs not implement SSL connections with their clients??

  • User profile image
    Maurits

    Shark_M wrote:
    Like Dialup to a peer machine, and the peer machine would dialup to others and so on. You end up with a network. And no one in the network have to pay to a centralized ISP server anything simply becaue they are not using it.


    Hmmm... suppose you wanted to talk to a computer on the other side of the world, six hops away.  How would the packet know how to get there?

  • User profile image
    Shark_M

    Maurits wrote:
    
    Shark_M wrote:Like Dialup to a peer machine, and the peer machine would dialup to others and so on. You end up with a network. And no one in the network have to pay to a centralized ISP server anything simply becaue they are not using it.


    Hmmm... suppose you wanted to talk to a computer on the other side of the world, six hops away.  How would the packet know how to get there?


    well I would only talk to computers connected to the Peer To peer network. If i have to talk to another computer outside the network then i have to use isps or something like that.

    But if the P2p network is large enough to reach many countries then (ie. peers all over the world) then its more likely that you will be able to talk to a pc that you want.

    but then security is a nother issue in this setting. but could use secure protcol like TCP-SSL

    But if we combine something like this with current ISPs we can browse at faster speeds. If i share my bandwidth with others and others share their bandwidth, then the total bandwidth I get is multiples of what ISPs give out. Is that not true?

    It would be similar to BitTorrent only now people share bandwidth. Maybe even make internet accessable to poor people in africa for free.

  • User profile image
    W3bbo

    Shark_M wrote:
    It would be similar to BitTorrent only now people share bandwidth. Maybe even make internet accessable to poor people in africa for free.


    Bandwidth is limited by physical connections, BitTorrent is a file transfer technology that takes some of the burden off monolithic servers, it has nothing to do with enabling Internet access to Africa.

  • User profile image
    Aragorn450

    You guys are all talking about going back to the old days and doing something like the BBS' of yesteryear (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulletin_board_system for those that don't know what I'm talking about).

    You could of course switch from analog lines and modems to fiber, but that'd require either running your own line (VERY expensive) or renting dark fiber from the telcos. The latter of course requires maintaining the connection yourself which isn't easy (or cheap) but VERY fast. Of course... you'd have to have the fiber running to your house too...

    Either way you look at it, it's just not going to happen like you want it to. Analog is far too slow and fiber is far too expensive to maintain. So sorry, just gotta live with the ISPs. No way around it.

  • User profile image
    Minh

    Isn't this the "last meter" problem? How do you connect your home computer to the internet in the first place?

    LAN / Cable / ADSL / ISDN are all out -- because those providers are, by definition, ISPs.


    How would you make phone modems work in this set up?

  • User profile image
    W3bbo

    Aragorn450 wrote:
    You could of course switch from analog lines and modems to fiber, but that'd require either running your own line (VERY expensive)


    It's not that expensive if you know what you're doing Wink

    As I said earlier, Fibre Optic cables and equipment can be purchased quite cheaply, and in suburbia there are often "utility holes" in the street you can get into to lay your own cable down the street to neighbours' houses (probably illegal...just don't tell anyone Wink )

    But yeah, for long-range telecommunications it will cost you a bomb. Why not just settle for tunneling?


  • User profile image
    Shark_M

    I can use my Dia-Up Modem to dial into another machine that is set to listening mode.

    if enough members in your city do this, then you guys are a network that is able to talk to each other. The only thing you need is to have more members to expand this network.

    now if this grows, Noth america can be connected this way using existing phone lines. The overseas problem can be fixed using highly secured channels through satillite connections and theyd be used only as relays. Just take packets from this group  to another in another country back and forth. Offcourse satillites can be monitored and all, but through minute by minute encryption (constantly changes and with randomly generated keys) sniffing is no problem.

    Just now most of us dont have to pay a monthly bill of $60 to an ISP with degrading signals sometimes.

    There are issues concerning privacy and issues concerning security. ISPs are now allowing people in US to "spy" on citizens, disregarding all rights they have to privacy as granted to them by the constitution.

    That is why more and more people are thinking of not using the net or phones. Until some new technology arives that would "technically" ensure their privacy and security.


    I dont know why but, the internet should have been secure by design from the very begnining. They should have implemented a secure protocole for all communications in the net and phones and all.

  • User profile image
    Sven Groot

    The problem is, everyone would need at least two phone lines to do this. And unless you're directly connected to a PC, your traffic will have to go through a bunch of intermediate PCs before it gets to its destination. Now this is the case on the Internet as well with routers, but routers are dedicated to the task and have high bandwidth suited for many users (typically). Routing your traffic through a bunch of ordinary PCs on dial-up connections that may also be routing other people's traffic as well as doing their own networking all at the same time would just be horribly slow.

    What you're suggesting is simply not feasible.

  • User profile image
    Shark_M

    Sven Groot wrote:
    The problem is, everyone would need at least two phone lines to do this. And unless you're directly connected to a PC, your traffic will have to go through a bunch of intermediate PCs before it gets to its destination. Now this is the case on the Internet as well with routers, but routers are dedicated to the task and have high bandwidth suited for many users (typically). Routing your traffic through a bunch of ordinary PCs on dial-up connections that may also be routing other people's traffic as well as doing their own networking all at the same time would just be horribly slow.

    What you're suggesting is simply not feasible.



    Isnt that how BitTorrent works? Its working and people do get files fast depending on how many people send it.


    So what is the way to get free internet then? espcially for poor countries in africa?

  • User profile image
    W3bbo

    Shark_M wrote:
    Isnt that how BitTorrent works? Its working and people do get files fast depending on how many people send it.


    No, it isn't.

    As I said earlier on in the thread, BT takes the file-upload burden off the central servers and on to other peers in the swarm.

    You're still limited by the bandwidth of your physical connection.


    Shark_M wrote:
    So what is the way to get free internet then? espcially for poor countries in africa?


    No it isn't.

  • User profile image
    Minh

    W3bbo wrote:

    As I said earlier on in the thread, BT takes the file-upload burden off the central servers and on to other peers in the swarm.

    You're still limited by the bandwidth of your physical connection.
    Actually, BitTorrent depends on the fact that you can connect to multiple peers at one time. With the modem scenario, most people have just one phone line -- which makes the web look more like a string.

Conversation locked

This conversation has been locked by the site admins. No new comments can be made.