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BitFlipper BitFlipper
  • windows changes and what goes on at hq

    @bondsbw: If Metro wasn't rammed down our throats on the desktop for no obvious reason other than to force people to fall in love the POS UI, people would not be complaining.

    All your bullet points are 100% correct. Metro is workable on a tablet/phone. But it should really not come into play on the desktop. Now we have 20+ years of desktop refinement out the window for some half-brained new UI concept that is clearly despised on the desktop.

    I'm all for the Metro concept, I even suggested something exactly along those lines long before MS announced it.

  • windows changes and what goes on at hq

    @magicalclick: It is definitely more than just borderless windows and fugly nondescript icons. But we can only address a small subset of the issues at a time.

    Getting back to windows with no (or barely-there) borders as an example... If that is the plan, there has to be another way to tell where one ends and another starts (what if they are the same uniform color?). Drop shadows used to provide a clear indication of this. Look at bondsbw's OSX screen for example. The window has a giant drop shadow that seems to stretch across the whole screen. Overkill for sure, but at least Apple recognized you can't have no (or barely there) borders and no drop shadow.

    While drop shadows fall into the skeuomorphic category, our brains are wired to detect objects in 3D using depth information as clues. Even a slight drop shadow gives enough information to our brains to decipher object boundaries. Remove it and things start blending together, requiring a better defined border, not less defined. It's like the geniuses working at MS these days can't grasp concepts like that.

    I hate over-the-top skeuomorphism too, but there is a middle ground where you lose all the leather/wood/metal/paper textures but still use subtle depth cues.

  • windows changes and what goes on at hq

    , bondsbw wrote


    BTW did you notice that the inactive window in Windows 10 has a slight drop shadow?

    If so, why? This goes against your viewpoints and shows MS found out the hard way that drop shadows actually serve an important purpose.

    The only time I mentioned skeuomorphism here is in relation to icon color, not flatness.  Not sure what your point is.

    You made it clear in previous discussions that anti-skeuomorphism means flat and featureless to you. Did you change your opinion on this?

    Can we get past this please?  You don't like some things, that's fine... again I agree with most of your points... but please stop flying the "I hate Metro" banner when Metro has little or nothing to do with the issues you are facing.

    Metro has everything to do with the problems I and others have with Windows 8. It permeates Windows 8, even if one's intent is to use it purely as a desktop OS.

    I'm starting to fear that Microsoft is actually taking some of the better parts of Metro design and removing them because they get so much feedback against Metro...

    You mean they finally started listening ever so slightly to the giant pile of negative feedback against Windows 8?

    ...when it's not even Metro that was the problem.

    Metro has everything to do with the problems I and others have with Windows 8. It permeates Windows 8, even if one's intent is to use it purely as a desktop OS.

    Example: Windows Phone 10 is adopting the much-reviled hamburger menu UI over the highly praised swipe UI from previous iterations of WP.

    Windows Phone 10 isn't a desktop OS.

    When we send the wrong message, the listener probably hears the wrong message.

    When you choose to ignore all the negative feedback, the listener will ultimately take their business somewhere else.

  • windows changes and what goes on at hq


    Sigh. Let's try this again:

    anti-skeuomorphism != flat

  • windows changes and what goes on at hq

    , bondsbw wrote


    Oh, you mean like this?

    I don't quite get what you are trying to prove here. It proves my point rather than your point, so thanks for saving me the time.

    Your screenshot shows a window with curved title bar and the whole window has a very obvious drop shadow. The drop shadow ensures there is no way for multiple window edges to blend together like they do with a pure flat theme.

    BTW did you notice that the active window in Windows 8 has a slight drop shadow? Non-active windows don't, so they blend together. I wonder why MS decided to add a drop shadow to the active window? This is just so against you and MS' precious flat-only brainfart idea, how do you explain it?

    Your try was a fail, but please do try again.

  • windows changes and what goes on at hq


    Neither Android nor iOS is a desktop OS.

    OSX has had some removal of the over the top superfluous chrome, while still allowing the ability to clearly see where one element stops and the other starts. There is no comparison to Windows 8 which is all about monochrome elements. Can you provide some links to images showing anything in OSX resembling what we see in Windows 8?

    Now most of the UI complaints have little to do with anything I mentioned.

    Wrong. I've complained about the loss of clearly identifiable window borders with multiple overlapping windows on this very same forum. I've also seen others complain about the same thing. And the monochrome icons make them all look similar with a great loss to uniquely identifiable properties like we used to have.

    So is your beef with Metro or with some contemporary change in Windows 8+?

    We've gone over this multiple times already. Since you choose to ignore it every time, I'm not going to waste my time once again. The internet is flooded with Windows 8 complaints which you can't seem to comprehend.

  • windows changes and what goes on at hq

    , bondsbw wrote

    @BitFlipper:  So people don't like Metro/flat UI, yet every major operating system is moving (or has already moved) in that direction.  Are they all wrong?  All that change just for 7 people?

    You can't be serious if you think you can compare the minor UI tweaks made to other OSes vs the usability and visual disaster that is Windows 8/10. Please enlighten us on which desktop OSes you think is following the same path.

  • windows changes and what goes on at hq

    , bondsbw wrote

    You and several others on this board just seem to hate the idea of change.  All I can say is, get over it.  It happens, and it will continue to happen so long as there is healthy market competition.

    OK fine, so there are 7 people that actually do like Windows 8. There are also 1.2 billion that apparently don't. MS thinks it can make a few tweaks to a clearly failed UI experiment and expect things to magically go back to the level of user satisfaction that we last saw with Windows7?

    Nobody was complaining about the Windows 7 UI. Yet it all had to be f*** up by someone's brainfart idea that people are going to fall in love with the Metro abomination on the desktop.

    How long will we need to wait for it to be fixed? Windows 12? Windows 14? By that time MS would have p****d away the last of their remaining public credit they got after releasing Windows 7. Nobody would care anymore.

    There is a difference between not wanting to accept change, and not wanting to accept bad change. Educate yourself on the difference.

  • Windows 10 stinks!

    @TexasToast: I had a limited number of resolutions to pick from. Even if the list was much larger and included widescreen resolutions, the fact that you even need to pick a resolution to begin with shows how far MS is behind VMware.

    Supposedly WinRT's audio latency issues are being addressed in W10. But TBH, the way W10 is going I'm not sure I would even want to use it at all.

  • Windows 10 stinks!

    , TexasToast wrote


    The ability to run virtual machines and now virtual desktops is a feature that is overlooked but is useful for people who might want a business/job desktop and personal desktop.


    I don't know about that. On my previous system running Windows 8.1, I used VMware Workstation to run VMs for various testing purposes. So when I recently set up my new system, also with Windows 8.1, I decided to go with HyperV since I want to keep things as "pure" as possible.

    Well all I can tell you is that I was quite disappointed. For one thing, with HyperV VMs you cannot even resize the container window and let it auto-resize the guest OS desktop like you can with VMware. No, you are stuck with a few low-res, non-widescreen resolutions. After some searching, I found some suggestions on adding more resolutions, but I still didn't have anything that matched my actual monitors. Maximize the VM window? In Workstation, the guest OS desktop is resized to exactly your monitor resolution. In HyperV it just centers the guest OS while maintaining the crappy low resolution.

    The typical suggestion on how to "fix" this issue is to RDP into the VM. Say what??

    I mean, maybe MS should run the competitor software from time to time to see how it should be done. It is hard to believe that VMware can make such a smooth integration with Windows running in a VM, but MS can't.

    That is just one example, there are others too. Eventually I just gave up and switched back to using VMware Workstation.

    BTW I did look into the "Enhanced Session" or whatever it is called. That also didn't help much.