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GoddersUK GoddersUK A is A.
  • Anonymous declares cyber-war on terrorists

    OK, here's a good piece on why ISIS should have free speech too.

    , cbae wrote


    There's no "court" that has jurisdiction over this. Obviously, the servers used by these terrorist organizations don't reside on US soil. Your argument is based on the premise that we need to endow the freedoms of the US Constitution to foreign terrorists organizations in the same we do US citizens.

    Easy one first. No, you need to give those freedoms to their business partners who run the data centres. They may well find the material distasteful and voluntarily remove it, that is their choice.

    , cbae wrote


    Ideas like that I should die because I don't believe in Allah? Like that kind of idea that I vehemently disagree with?

    Yes. Because I'm sure you wouldn't have a problem if the idea was that Kim Jong Un should die because he's really mean to everyone else in North Korea. So stop being a hypocrite.

    Nope. Speech used to incite people to kill other people is not something free speech is supposed to protect. A line has to be drawn. Sorry.

    Of course. It's not like the killers are the ones who should be held responsible for killing people... "If he told you to jump off a cliff would you do it?"

    Try putting up a website calling for recruits to assassinate the POTUS. Let's see how long "free speech" protects you from having your house raided. Go ahead.

    The law we have/judicial decisions != what is morally and philosophically right. But if you were careful with how you worded and actually got your day in court with a good lawyer (apparently one of the best modern first amendment counsels there is... no idea whether or not he'd represent ISIS types, though) (rather than being the subject of an extra-judicial execution drone strike on enemy combatants) I think you'd be in with a fighting chance of being cleared. Again, IANAL.

    In fact I think the US declaration if independence, which I posted an excerpt from earlier could be considered an incitement to sedition.

  • Anonymous declares cyber-war on terrorists

    , evildictait​or wrote


    In your example, statements one and two are dissimilar. The first is advocating for a (hateful) change in law - and political speech is overtly protected. The second is advocating violence against a group, which is not, and has never been protected under the law. 

    But they're not dissimilar. The only reason you would argue number 1 is if you believe number 2. And how can your convince people to support your cause (1) if you can't state your arguments (2)?

    On fighting words, according to Wikipedia the (original, broader than is applied today) definition of fighting words is "those that by their very utterance inflict injury or tend to incite an immediate breach of the peace" (emphasis added). If I tell the assembled mob to smash the nearby school in that creates an immediate breach of the peace. If I record a you tube video simply saying that, in general, it is a good thing for schools to be smashed in that doesn't create an immediate breach of the peace, and I don't think you could reasonably argue that it inflicts injury "by its very utterance".

    IANAL, that might not reflect they way the courts interpret them but it reflects the literary meaning of the words in question and, I think, the important moral distinction that words are not actions and can only very rarely be considered as such (fraud, true threats, imminent lawlessness, libel/slander come to mind).

  • Anonymous declares cyber-war on terrorists

    , evildictait​or wrote

    It is hateful, but permissible within Freedom of Expression to say, for instance, "This country is going to the dogs, and it is the fault of the Jews". It is not permissible within Freedom of Expression to say "You should bomb a Jewish school - it will make you a martyr and your religion demands it".

    I'm going to go ahead and assume we're in US jurisdiction for the purposes of this. IANAL but that quote isn't a threat ("I will blow your school up" would be a threat") and neither does it create a clear and present danger ("Go storm that school now, ye angry assembled mob"). Consider the following three statements:

    1) "It should be legal to round up gipsies in the street and kick them."
    2) "We should round up gipsies in the street and kick them."
    3) "I'll give you a fiver if you round up those gipsies and kick them."

    Clearly statement one is protected political speech. By extension statement two must be, because it's the justification for statement one. It's only statement three that should be legally questionable.

    EDIT: To answer your post more directly: There is a difference between advocating violence and making a threat. Similarly there is a difference between advocating violence and posing and immediate danger. In both cases the advocation of violence itself shouldn't be illegal.

    To give a real world example: In the police thread several people have suggested that if you resist arrest the police should be able to use force against you. That is advocating violence, yet I have no doubt you believe that should not be suppressed.

  • Anonymous declares cyber-war on terrorists

    @SimonJ: As a UK resident myself I can sadly say we don't have freedom of speech in the UK, and haven't for a while. I mean just read some of what you'll find here.

  • crazy anti-cop culture.

    @evildictaitor: Would drug cartels even exist if drugs were legalised?

  • Anonymous declares cyber-war on terrorists

    , cbae wrote


    Sorry, but this isn't just a matter of allowing somebody to express ideas we don't agree with.

    Sorry, let me rephrase. Ideas you vehemently diagree with. 

    Those sites are intended to foment anger at the western society and recruit more terrorists.

    That is exactly the kind of speech that free speech is supposed to protect. Would you suggest that the following is unprotected speech?

    it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it [government], and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness... ... it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

    (taken from the US declaration of independence)

    As far as I'm concerned, this is the web-equivalent of yelling "fire!" in a theater.

    I take it you didn't read the links I posted? tl;dr:

    • It's "falsely shout fire in a crowded theatre to cause panic" (this distinction is important: we do want people to shout fire in a crowded theatre if they believe it's warranted (even if it turns out someone just forgot to turn the smoke machine off); further, in real life, most issues aren't as clear cut as incendiary emergencies tend to be)
    • In its original context "falsely shouting fire in a crowded theatre" was a reference to producing literature suggesting conscription was wrong during WWI
    • Later supreme court opinions and judgements have gone against both this ruling and Holme's opinion
    • Holme's himself, later in life, rejected his opinion in this case as wrong

    Even if this is equivalent to falsely shouting fire in a crowded theatre to cause panic (a doubtful comparison for "radicalising" material, to say the least) that doesn't, and shouldn't, create an exception to free speech.

  • Anonymous declares cyber-war on terrorists

    @cheong: I'm still waiting for the day the media understands this.

  • Anonymous declares cyber-war on terrorists

    All the variations on "Freedom of speech, except for speech that I don't like" in this thread so far:

    , SimonJ wrote

    Freedom of speech has to have limits (EG shouting "Fire" in a crowded theatre)


    , BitFlipper wrote


    OK I get what you are saying. However I won't cry if the poor innocent terrorists' freedom of speech is squashed. All they have to offer is hate, and there is no hope in having any productive argument with them. Especially when religion comes into the picture, logic goes out the window and nothing you can say will change their brainwashed minds. There is only one way to deal with sad excuses for human beings like that - remove them from the face of the planet before they hurt or kill any more innocent people.

    , cbae wrote


    So we should extend freedom of speech to those who want to destroy the very society that offers that freedom of speech? I think you can safely draw the line somewhere and not be considered hypocritical. Kind of like how it's acceptable that a society that glorifies freedom is still endowed with the power to take away freedom from criminals. If you can justify imprisoning criminals in a free society, it's not that much of a stretch to justify electronically castrating jihadist groups that want to destroy the fabric of western society.

    People are all too fond of cutting off the start of the famous summary of Voltaire's philosophy: I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will defend your right to say it.

    You do not support free speech unless you support the free speech rights of your enemies, be they Abu Hamza or Nick Griffin, the tea party or SJWs.

    *SimonJ, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here. You seem to be arguing for freedom of speech while making the, correct, point that "true threats (of force)" are not considered freedom, either legally or philosophically. Unfortunately you chose a metaphor that is a) wrong and b) arose from a very definite suppression of political speech. See here and here.

  • crazy anti-cop culture.

    , wkempf wrote


    Sorry, while I'll agree with most of what you said, I can't agree here. Police officers are putting their lives on the line. Someone resisting arrest has upped the likelihood of injury or death to the officer high enough that it may well warrant extreme behavior on the part of the officer.

    That is not inherently the case. If I resist arrest by trying to punch the police officer in the face, by all means they should have the leeway to use necessary force. If I resist arrest simply by being uncooperative then no. I pose no risk.

    We have to be very careful about authorising use of force outside cases where there's a clear danger to officer or public safety because it's not for the officer to punish you for resisting arrest, that's an extra item for the charge sheet.

    But the sentiment that the cops were automatically out of line in these situations is troublesome.

    The police wield state sanctioned force, a higher level of scrutiny is appropriate. Yes, there are questions about how much that should translate into liability for individual officers vs. the department as an institution, but every time the state engages in lethal, or near-lethal, force that is grounds to investigate.

    Perhaps there's a cultural difference because, over here, if an officer so much as discharges a firearm there's a massive investigation; let alone if the police are involved (directly or otherwise) in a death. (Our situation isn't directly comparable as our officers don't routinely carry firearms, but I think the difference in culture is still worth noting. Also, FWIW, even when we didn't have particularly strict gun controls in the UK rank and file police officers were never routinely armed.)


  • crazy anti-cop culture.

    , BitFlipper wrote

    However I think the police have reason to be unhappy in this case. They risk their lives every day to deal with criminals, but now suddenly they are portrayed as the criminals. In every one of these instances they were dealing with people that already had criminal records (or were in the process of committing some crime), but now those same criminals are portrayed as the innocent victims.

    They don't help themselves, in that case. Behaviour such as they've shown to De Blasio makes it sound like they're saying "we're above scrutiny, we're above accountability, our actions should not be questioned". By refusing to accept that there are questions over the way officers have handled recent high-profile incidents they're suggesting they either can't tell good policing from bad policing or just don't care. The (reported) response of many police officers to these cases seems to bely a basic ignorance of the concept of policing by consent; of the fact that they are policing for the people, not policing the people.

    And to all the people that point out that Eric Garner was committing a crime: get a sense of proportion. An interaction with a police officer for sale of untaxed cigarettes should not result in the death of the alleged offender, unless the offender initiates some form of violence. The police should not have a license to get away with any kind of behaviour to someone who poses no public danger simply for refusal to cooperate (including resisting arrest). Now it's possible his death was a horrible coincidence that couldn't be foreseen, we'll have to hear from the pathologists on that one, but it's right that the incident is heavily scrutinised (including by journalists).