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KDawg KDawg
  • Glad to be off the Microsoft API treadmill

    , Bass wrote

    The API treadmill definitely happens for non-Microsoft stuff as well. One example I think of is Java XML marshaling libraries, and web frameworks. Java has many of both, in various stages of "hotness" and approaches.

    But the difference is in the non-Microsoft world there is no "cathedral model", where a bunch of "high priests" come out every year to command some new form of development that everyone must follow.

    In the Java world evolution happens in a distributed ("bazaar") style, where the developer community organically moves to various technologies as time progresses, and these technologies rarely comes from the original sponsor of Java (Sun). It works like natural selection.

    That's why we got stuff like the Spring Framework which pretty much eclipses the "cathedral"-competitor EJB. It's more even more true in Python and Ruby communities which have nothing resembling a centralized commercial sponsor.

    What is the Microsoft world?  Is that Windows?  Or is it Microsoft dev tools?  Because I have a ton of different dev tools I can use for Windows, many that don't originate from Microsoft. 

    If you're referring to MS dev tools then it is a tautology.  Every dev community has its own high preists.  Go to Rails and they are even more hardcore about "only one right to do things".  That's the whole notion of opinionated frameworks, "We know better, so listen to us, or go home". 

    But the MS high preists have typically been quite good, compared to the open source world.  Even the great high preist of open source dev tools, gcc, just recently because decent. 

    But the MS dev community doesn't blindly follow the preists.  When the preists came out and said, Visual Source Safe then later TFS, for SCC everyone said that is blasphemy.  And everyone used SVN, Mercurial, Git, etc...

    The world is never as nice and neat as some would like you to believe.

  • Glad to be off the Microsoft API treadmill

    ,Frank Hileman wrote

    Consider the "metro style" rules for applications. Is it worth paying lots of attention to the metro profile? It may disappear soon. We have no way to know.

    Isn't that always the case?  Technologies progress.  People used Prototype, now they use CoffeeScript.  What will it be next week?  People used tables, then only divs/spans, now grids and flexbox, what will it be next week? 

    This is why the core of a good developer should be fundamentals.  If you ask me to RoR, I can pick it up in a day or two.  If you want me to ASP.NET MVC, the same thing.  Was up and running with WPF in a few days coming from scratch.  HTML/JS -- literally felt comfortable in a few hours.  Haskell, give me a week to be comfortable.  Learned QT (from w/ C++) in a couple of days.

    Sure I'm not a language lawyer in that time, but I'm "early" productive in that time, and learning.  But I've built the foundation and I supplement it with these languages and frameworks.

    If you feel like you're on a treadmill, it's because you have no foundation.

  • DISCUSSION: .NET vs. C++ vs. JS, who's in the best position for Metro ?

    ,DeathBy​VisualStudio wrote


    IMO, C++ is the winner because windiv is winning. It was quite clear from build that there is still a great division between windiv an devdiv. WinRT (COM with a little sugar) and Metro is what Microsoft is betting the farm on. They are both products of windiv and they seem to be running the show right now. C++ or Javascript...anything windiv controls is golden. Their architecture diagram says it all.

    Also IMO you will see more and more of .NET APIs being swallowed up by WinRT until .NET is relegated to apps akin to vb6 apps today.

    Actually WinDiv and DevDiv split the pot.  Windows came in and basically won the battle that you can't use the CLR for doing systems development.  They effectively rewrote the BCL as native code.  But DevDiv won the API story.  All the APIs look like DevDiv APIs, not WinDiv APIs (including Xaml as the markup for C++ apps even).  In one of the sessions the WinRT guy even said that the Windows API design review process is modeled from the DevDiv one. 

    I personally like the split.  I want the improved perf from more native code in the stack, but I did hate the Windows APIs, while the .NET APIs have been great.  And we still keep C#.  With that said, I'm not a super fan of Xaml.  I mean I like it, but if I could somehow bind HTML/CSS to C#, I'd happily use that too.

  • Windows 8 - First Impressions (that you didnt ask for!)

    ,NitzWalsh wrote


    ...and in this case, it's likely 90% DirectX.  It's not showing an application with Metro design.  If you include sample apps for a new development/GUI framework, then should show it off - this is the equivalent of showing off Metro by launching a video through the start screen.


    I don't think the goal was to show off Metro as much to show how to use it and some practices they've learned along the way.  Sinofsky was very clear that these are not shipping apps.  He said it like three times to hammer it home.  And then hammered it home that interns built these.  He's setting expectations.  At the same time, the fact that you haven't seen any real Metro apps means you'll see them closer to launch.  I think there' s decent chance we're going to get Office:Metro at launch.

  • Why all the C/C++ interest all of a sudden?

    It seems to me that the perf hit I get with C# is mostly related to layout in WPF/SL.  It sounded like the Xaml layer for C++ was native C++ code.  Is that true?  Is it faster?

  • Windows 8 - First Impressions (that you didnt ask for!)

    ,cbae wrote


    Let's see what you can throw together in 10 weeks.

    10 weeks starting 10 weeks ago.  That means a much less stable platform.  Moving parts, probably having to install new Windows builds daily, and providing detailed bug reports and feedback.  And in some cases I suspect the interns had to learn XAML, Javascript, C#, and C++ (since I bet they had different groups use different technologies). 

  • Windows 8 app store and the anti-trust issue

    ,wastingtime​withforums wrote

    Is it just me, or is there a huge anti-trust issue with this concept? If you can get Metro apps only through the app store, I can see already other "store" providers like Amazon and Valve calling the courts.

    And I know, Mac has an app store too, but it also had a bundled browser almost as long as Windows and no one cared.

    They don't have a 90% marketshare with Metro.  Only with classic desktop.  You can still get classic desktop apps anywhere you like.  If you don't like the Metro app store there are other markets of comparable size.

  • Hello from Windows 8

    ,NitzW wrote






    Yes, because it didn't need it - the Start Menu search (for me at least) was mainly used as a quick program launcher or familiar file launcher.  Start typing the first few characters of the app/document, <Enter> - boom, app launched, or drag the document that you need opened into a new window (or right-click and delete it, copy it, get properties, etc). Now through Win8:

    • Windows key - launches Metro, a completely alien GUI compared to the one you were just in. 
    • With the mouse, select Apps or Files.
    • Enter in your search text.
    • Select the app/file, hit return. Or, you wanted to drag and drop?  Pfft.

    Yes, you can use the search field in Explorer - after you open up the Window, mouse the mouse pointer or hit Tab several times, type in your query.

    Many more steps to replicate the functionality of a hotkey - which now launches a completely distinct GUI.  Wonderful.


    Can't you just start typing in Metro and it searches immediately.  Why do you need to select Apps or Files?

  • hi niners!

    ,jamie wrote


    - zoom out shot - shows c9 guys with lights turning darkness and graveyards into day / parks/gardens  - moving across the country side



    METRO: The OS youve been waiting for.


    Awaken the GIANT in you.

    I actually like it.  Maybe not the steak part, but for the most part, I like it.

  • Questions for at //BUILD/ -- CH9 Live ?

    ,cbae wrote


    It was pretty clear from the get-go that Microsoft wasn't going to address any individual concerns until Build. Right or wrong, that was Microsoft's intent, and it was obvious that 4 months of vociferousness and threats to abandon Microsoft's developer ecosystem weren't going to cause Microsoft to change its plan. I'm pretty sure that Microsoft knows that it burned some bridges, perhaps a lot of them, over the past few months. They're now giving you an opportunity to tell them how they can win you back. They can't read your mind. If you think they need to grovel, give you free $hit for life, contractually promise never to pull this $hit again, and say "pretty please", then you need to let them know that.

    If you have no interest in going back to Microsoft development, go build your Java application or whatever and destroy your competitor's .NET solution in the marketplace. Taking one last swipe at Microsoft isn't going to do $hit. What's done is done.

    Microsoft really screwed the pooch on this one.  They didn't have to say much, but even if they said, "At BUILD, we think you'll be pretty pleased." rather than the message of "Windows8 apps are built with HTML/JS".  MS didn't need to be specific, but by saying something controversial and then nothing gave the impression that they were about to screw existing devs over.  In 1997 that was fine.  Devs had no where else to go.  In 2011 I have to convince devs to stay on Windows -- almost all devs are now getting Macs and beginning to focus on web/iOS/Android.

    In any case, this is what I want answered at BUILD:

    1) When is Windows 8 shipping?

    2) Can the old shell be made the default?

    3) What is the Windows Phone story post Mango/Tango?  Does it intersect Windows desktop?

    4) Can we get decent Windows tablet HW?

    5) Perf has been a killer with modern MS dev tools.  Can we get productive tools/frameworks that don't cripple machines?

    6) What is the Office story and Windows8/Metro? 

    7) What coming in VSNext?