It is actually very obscure reference to Alan Partridge - if you didn't see it (the Alan Partridge show) you simply have to - after seeing it you will never look at world the same again.
As for if it should be K not N? Yep, you're right, but because I'm bloody foreigner I very often make mistakes and type nife instead of knife for example
And yes, I'm reasonable, but as I've said previously, sometimes diplomacy must be left for diplomats, diplomats must be locked, and real men must do the work, otherwise we ending up with all sorts of problems. After the work is done I have absolutely no problems with letting those diplomats out free again
Hi Herb, won't be hiding anything, I think you are wearing too many hats mister, and you want to eat the cake and have it too.
I have lots of problems with the way you pretending to be and the way you really are, will point to just two of them at the moment:
a) your pre and post //build behavior - you knew exactly what's gonna happen yet to the very end you pretended that C++ is going to have its renaissance at MS. Lots of talk, zero action, or as some of us, (I notably), seen such "actions" as coming from the betrayal category. Anyway, after //build you radically have changed your opinion towards C++ and were trying to convince us that CX is not only better but the only viable option. You were also not interested in engaging (engaging, not just talking and not listening) with us, devs, one of your comment which stuck in my mind was something along the lines:
"Guys, this thread is too long, I'm not gonna read it"
but there was more and some of your replies where simply outrageous.
b) In your last post you've said: "You should check out the November 2012 CTP"
In reply to that I have just one thing to say:
You should check out status of C++11 in clang and gcc, compare it to VS, and then we can talk. Because if you were a man of action, someone with your position at MS would make sure that VS would be up to date C++ wise. But it isn't. Do you understand now why I think that:
"he(Mr Sutter) talks all the time about C++, yet he does nothing or almost nothing (at least the effects suggest it) to put C++ into leading position - see the state of VS's C++ compiler.
Herb, I do understand that my words are harsh and are directed at you, and I also do understand that you may feel offended. But that's how I feel about your person at MS and the effects of it. You are supposed to be "The main C++ architect", yet, status of C++ compiler in VS is couple of years behind freely available compilers. You do lots of talk, yet the effects (the real effects meaning that devs can actually use modern C++ on which you talk so much, are poor on VS) suggest that you don't do the walk.
I also do understand that I am not even a pawn in this game, so you really do not have to convince me nor prove to me anything, but as long as I can reason, I am going to state my opinion in the most direct way. This may seem bit too dramatic for you but someone once said:
"We could avoid first and second world war if we only didn't use diplomacy"
So my conclusion to this bit too lengthy post would be:
If I were you, and would still want my person to be seen as C++ guy I'd make sure that I do:
Less talk and more (visible/tangible) action - up to date C++ compiler.
Herb would you do me a favor and tell me what your formal education is - it is impossible to find any info about it anywhere.
a) all your examples from last post prove my point - Herb does a lots of talk, but he doesn't do the walk.
b)"Herb was lead designer for C++ AMP" - just like he is Main C++ Architect at MS. And what? I'm more than sure that he doesn't write production code, he simply talks (and designs - with help of qualified engineers).
"It has been said that C++ isnt the most productive lang when it comes to programer productivity"
but it has been proved that C++ is as much productive as C# and Java and there are many scenarios where C++ is simply more productive due to its flexibility.
"Also your dumb claims about one language to rule them all is laughable and shows you know nothing about sw development"
Where did I say that C++ is the only and correct way to go?
"So Herb will use C# when it is appropriate, he will use C++ when it is appropriate."
With all due respect, you don't know when he will use one and when the other language, but this is not the point. The point is that he talks all the time about C++, yet he does nothing or almost nothing (at least the effects suggest it) to put C++ into leading position - see the state of VS's C++ compiler. And that's the whole gripe I have with Mr Sutter. Lots of talk, zero action or worse, lots of actions suggesting that Mr Sutter plays on the .NET side.
And to be clear - I have nothing against any language, nor people using any of those languages. The only problem I have with Mr Sutter is that he talks about C++ and nothing else, and as I've said previously some of the actions of his would suggest that he tries to play on both teams. This is simply not good. One should pick one team and stick with it. Otherwise one looks like he's sitting on the fence.
Funny that someone removed one comment (not mine), criticizing Mr Sutter. It went something like, herb, stop talking start doing something, bring back VS native etc.
The point is that Mr. Sutter can only talk. Talk, talk, talk. Empty talk. And giving speeches Oh, he loves this. He simply loves giving speeches. Mr Sutter - wake up call! Talking is easy and yet even on those pre-prepared speeches you are making silly mistakes. Because you simply don't understand FULLY what you are talking about. But that's the problem when you don't have proper education, isn't it?
Why don't you Mr Sutter try to convince your employers and make them realize that C++ is much better than .Net? But why would you do it. In one of your talks you said that you love C#. You also said that you are wearing many hats. Well, Mr Sutter, it is time to realize that you have to decide which hat you like best and chose it. Because wearing many hats, especially the one you are wearing makes you look like you are sitting on the fence.
@Lrdx_or_anyone_for_that_matter why would you want to discuss such issues with charles? He "ain't" programmer, he doesn't have necessary knowledge. All he does is those silly "good for nothing" videos.
Charles, if you do something useful at MS please let me (us) now.
@Ann thank you for paraphrasing my post. Most appreciated. Thank you.
@Glen Thanks for the link.
Now to answer your queston:
I'd like to see mr sutter's qualifications because his "track record" as you called it, so far is just that he can talk a lot - but does very little actual real work. And from this link (given to me by PFYB) http://herbsutter.com/2011/10/25/garbage-collection-synopsis-and-c/ you'll see that he has actually very little idea what he is talking about. Concentrate on exchange between him and David Abrahams.
And why do I want to know what mr sutter's formal education is? Because I'm fed-up with careerists like him, who without proper education are put on absolutely unsuitable positions and are absulutely unprepared to do any real work - because they don't have right/correct education. That's why.
And as my feeling goes, mr sutter doesn't have formal education which would indicate that he is a suitable guy to be a C++ architect. But I'm happy to say that I was wrong only someone has to prove it to me. But he wan't. Becase he can't. Because he doesn't have anything to show except smart * responses and patronizing talk. That's what his track record is so far.
As for my language, first, have to correct you here, I've never called anyone cretin, you see Glen, you just repeating what Charles told you, without actually paying attention what I'm saying and why. Anyway, that's not important. The important thing is that I believe that in extreme situations extreme measures are needed. This is extreme situation. That's why I'm using the kind of language I'm using. I'm not going to say to someone when he lies to me that his truth is different to mine. No! He is a lair. In case of mr sutter when at his position, he did nothing to help C++, on the contrary it seems like everything is done to hurt C++, what in that situation mr sutter should be called? The guy who tried to kill C++? I'm ok with that too.
And I'm sorry to say Glen but if you cannot overcome the negative feeling and see truth in my words just because I'm using strong language, then just simply don't read my posts. It's easy I think. You see my nick and skip it.
But I tell you one thing with reference to that - I and II war could've been avoided if diplomacy hadn't been used.
And if I'll get blocked from this site it will just prove my point more than anything.
I'd like you also to clarify on that, becase well, it is not clear what you mean when you say:
"However, language is of no use if you can't control it to be understood too. You still need perspective, or you aren't talking clay, you are talking doggie chocolate!"
"Remember, it's a programming language, not more."
No, to me it's not. To me, it is a way of life, it is the way you express yourself through your ideas, the way you realize yourself by creating. The way my FREEDOM is defined. Democratically. And by what body my freedom is guaranteed. ISO C++ std.
If to you all of those things are just a language and you can easily switch from one way to other and you accept that from now on someone will tell you what language you have to speak in order to be understood, then Glen, we are made from very different clay.
@Charles Just to correct you because you're wrong (again) in what you're saying:
"C++/CX and WRL are what will ship and they're excellent tools for the job at hand."
Charles by saying this you just contradicted yourself. At one point in time you've said that WRL approach is feasible but impractical, now you're saying that they're excellent tools. Well I suppose that's how the regime's machine works.
And when you're saying:
" People are building apps with them today and the consensus is overwhelmingly positive. "
Would you mind and point us to the place where people are actually expressing their positive opinions on a subject? Somehow they're not here.
And could you also ask mr herb to tell us what university he finished, what titles he has, what is his qualification/education background. Looked on the web, couldn't find anywere. But surely he must have (not some) education in the field, he poses as an expert mustn't he?
So just to summarize:
1. WRL is not an excellent tool even thoug once you say it is and few days after you say it isn't and few days after that you say that it is. Get it!
2. Where are those people who think CX is a great tool for a job?