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  • There is no escape from the suck-train!

    7 minutes ago, wastingtime​withforums wrote


    Metro apps in W8 were literally like DOS applications in the sense that anything goes. Most Win32 applications adhere to a recognizable structure, even the skinned and themed ones, while with metro you were in it for an adventure every time.

    The only "recognizable structure" is a menu with "File", "Edit", and "Help" menu pads that are in common in most applications. Besides that, it IS anything goes. This ancient menu paradigm is so useful to discoverability of application features, that Microsoft essentially abandoned it 8 years ago. The reason any new release of a Win32 application still uses menus is because of crybabies like you. How many greenfield projects for Windows applications of any significance have implemented his stale UI paradigm?


    How much of a waste of time those are was shown in W8 when people were exhausted to find how to close the metro craps or print inside one.

    I don't know. How much of waste of time was it to teach people that the print option was under the "File" menu pad?


    Original point was whether the whole shazaam is an upgrade for W7, which is primarily used on mouse-centric form factors.

    It's still an upgrade for people that use touchpad instead of a mouse, and considering that notebook sales eclipsed desktop sales ages ago, clinging to a UI paradigm that sucked donkey balls even for a mouse user isn't a winning strategy.


    Does anyone care? You (almost) can't even find a how-to tutorial on "app-contracts" or the charms-bar on the web. It's so neat, that no one bothers with it.

    You're talking about it as if anyone cares about it.


    Maybe this is a reflection of nobody giving a rat's * if inter-app interaction can be achieved somehow. Really, who cares about drag-and-drop capability from any application other than from Explorer?

    So, again we're in the "is this an upgrade of W7?" territory..

    On the desktop, the remedy of W8's nuisances (handling [mostly  closing] the start screen and the metro apps) were keyboard shortcuts. This was even the rallying cry of the apologists ("who needs the start menu, I am more effective with Windows 8 and the keyboard than I've ever been before!)

    I am sure most here will remember this.

    No, I don't remember this rallying cry, and I wouldn't have joined in anyway. I rarely use the keyboard to find applications because I either know exactly where it is or don't remember what the name of the application is. The biggest nuisance for me is that Microsoft made a poor choice in typography for the program group labels in the "All Apps" screen. They don't stand out enough and blend in with the actually application shortcuts. Still, it's a superior layout for finding things since I can visually scan for what I'm looking for instead of having to drill down into program groups to find it. I rarely have to use this anyway since I pin my most used applications to the Start Screen or the Taskbar.


    I am talking about the metro menu.

    No, you said "lack of start menu", so I asked you what aspect of the "Start Menu" is lacking. Since you seem confused by what you yourself posted, I'll explain what I was getting at.

    In Windows 7, what people call "Start Menu" is a mish mash of several things, one of which is the "Start Menu". Yes, that sounds confused, but the term "Start Menu" is actually a synecdoche (i.e. the REAL Start Menu is actually one component of a collection UI elements that's also called the "Start Menu"). Each UI element in the Start Menu has an analog in Windows 8/8.1.

    Windows 7 UI elements:
    1. Search box

    2. Left pane - This pane changes between 2 modes:
    a. The real "Start Menu" - This is a single list of "pinned" shortcuts above the search box and "All Programs" menu pad. You add items to the Start Menu by right-clicking on a shortcut and selecting "Pin to Start Menu". If you pin a bunch of items, the Start Menu starts to look ridiculous because it doesn't have scroll bars.
    b. Program groups - This is the hierarchical menu system that appears when you click the "All Programs" menu pad. In XP, you could select "Classic Start Menu", and these program groups would expand when you just moused over the program groups, which made using it bearable. Starting with Vista, you had to drill down in the groups by clicking. If you wanted to avoid this rigmarole, you'd have to pin to taskbar or pin to Start Menu.

    3. Right pane - These are shortcuts to various features and shutdown button. While it's nice that it's somewhat customizable, it doesn't have shortcuts to some features that I find more useful.

    Analog in Windows 8/8.1:
    1. Search flyout - invoked by just typing. It might not be as discoverable as in Windows 7, but ergonomically it's superior since the search textbox doesn't require focus. You can scroll the list with your arrow keys and just type away. The textbox updates automatically. In Windows 7, if the search textbox loses focus, you have to mouse back into the box to start typing.

    2. "Start Screen" - It's better than the Windows 7 analog because you can create groups, name them, and rearrange them as you please. In Windows 7, the Start Menu is a single list of shortcuts. I don't even know how it's ordered. Also,

    3. "All Apps" screen - While it could have been vastly improved with just better typographical choices, it's still arguably better than the hierarchical program groups in Windows 7 since you don't have to hunt and peck through program groups to find the program you're looking for since everything is visible at once.

    4. Right-click menu - Not as discoverable as the right pane of the Start Menu, but direct links to Network Connections, Device Manager, and Command Prompt alone makes it better.

    Everyone who got confused there got "keyboard!" shouted in return. The expectation of the apologists was that you need remember all your needed programs by name, because the proposition that the metro menu was equal to the start menu was even for them usually too much, that's why they (you) had to badmouth all menus in general,


    Uh, no. Not even close. I already addressed this. You're just repeating yourself.

    Read the link. In W8, you had pretty much to use one single account for multiple users (like in a school) if you wanted to use them metro extensively. Everything else became quite messy, because apps are installed per user and updated per user.


    You have the option to use the same Microsoft account to access the store across multiple Windows user accounts OR you can have each user log into the store with separate Microsoft accounts. What other option do you want? In the case of a school why would you want each user to have separate Microsoft accounts? Students shouldn't installing anything themselves anyway.

    You really want to play THAT game, again? REALLY? Defendo-8?

    Are you STILL not through it?

    So you dug up a list of your verbal diarrhea posts. What does that prove other than you're an incessant whiner?

    Think long and hard about this before you post another fail of a retort: If you had actually used Windows 8 exclusively since inception, would the aggregate of the time you hypothetically would have lost dealing with whatever (alleged) reduction of usability in the Windows 8 Start Screen have even come close to the amount of time you wasted whining in this forum about Windows 8/10? I HIGHLY doubt it.

  • There is no escape from the suck-train!

    , wastingtime​withforums wrote


    Double downing on not reading posts before typing?

    I wrote:


    Some of the most crazy things of W8 were fixed in 10, it's still too bad though to be a W7 succesor.

    Everything I pointed out applies to Windows 8 as well, except for Explorer supporting app contracts. So your claim is more asinine than being correct.

  • There is no escape from the suck-train!

    2 hours ago, wastingtime​withforums wrote


    What's so absurd about it, "metro GUI" and its apps in Windows 8 had more in common with DOS than with Windows:

    Double downing on asinine. LOL

    -Full screen paradigm

    Full screen paradigm that renders inside a window? :S

    And they've been allowed to run docked split screen since Windows 8. How much more wrong can you be about this claim?

    -Single task focus, with irky multitasking thrown it (DOS TSRs - metro switch)

    Even ignoring the fact that you can run multiple Windows Apps inside floating windows, you can easily switch between them without having actually relaunch the application. IOW, it's nothing like DOS.

    -Every application has its own user interface

    Of course that's the case. WTF does this even mean? What do you want? The return of object linking and embedding so you can edit an Excel object inside of a Word document?

    -No visible chrome

    Chrome is a waste of space. Still you have title bars when Windows Apps render in a floating window.

    -No drag & drop between applications

    Drag and drop is nothing more than a mouse-centric paradigm for what is now app contracts in Windows Apps. Explorer in W10 now has a Share button that does the exact same thing as drag and drop without having to deal with the shitty user experience of having to click on something and while holding the mouse button down, moving the mouse cursor clear across the display without accidentally letting go of the button to soon and not panicking if you change your mind mid-drag (most people don't know you that you can press ESC to cancel a drag drop). And that's how shitty it is when using a traditional mouse. It's worse by tenfold if you have to use a touchpad.

    -Focus on keyboard shortcuts

    Like hell it is. If anything, they're focused on touch.

    -Lack of start menu was answered with "just type the program name"

    Are you talking about the Start Menu or the "Program Groups"? The Start Menu is centered on the search box (i.e. you type the name of program), and it was the answer for people who couldn't stand the drill down nature of program groups in Windows XP. When the Start Menu comes up, the mouse cursor is inside the search box ready for you to type and all you see are your "pinned" applications above it (i.e. the actual "Start Menu") and some shortcuts to libraries and system features on the right pane. The program groups are secondary UI paradigm that they bolted onto the Start Menu. The idea is that you drill down to find your applications that you want to run frequently and either pin them to the Start Menu or to the task bar. It's a feature intended to be used once every blue moon.

    -Single user orientation (Using multiple accounts with metro apps was/is quirky)

    How so?

  • There is no escape from the suck-train!

    , wastingtime​withforums wrote


    By that metric, if MS re-releases DOS and renames command.com to Kernel32.exe with a really high version number, this thing would count as an upgrade of Windows.


    If you're going to present hypotheticals as absurd as this to make your point, you lost the argument.

    With W8, that line has been crossed already and is actually no less silly than the DOS example

    That you believe this is why nobody should take you seriously. But keep screaming, Chicken Little. You're mildly entertaining.


  • Dual Boot++ -MS Patent

    Hypervisor on a phone?

  • There is no escape from the suck-train!

    , BitFlipper wrote

    I don't know, how much more do you guys need to realize the whole Metro experiment has been an epic fail? Talk about not wanting to accept something.

    But go ahead, keep doing the same thing over and over and expect a different outcome next time...

    Why do I need a different outcome? I use Windows 8.1 over and over again, and it works great. I anticipate the same with Windows 10. You act like I have some vested interest in the success of Windows 10.

  • There is no escape from the suck-train!

    , BitFlipper wrote


    I think you have the asinine idea that W10 is an upgrade compared to W7.

  • Microsoft taking aim at Linux servers?

    , Bas wrote

    I don't get it. The title mentions that this thing is for, among other things, Modern Apps, but then mentions nothing of the sort in the article. Is it supposed to act as a sort of app repository? What's the point?

    I don't think they meant "Modern Apps" (i.e. apps formerly known as "Metro Apps"), if that's what you're thinking. I think what they really meant was "modern applications" (i.e. non-legacy/non-Win32 applications that run managed-code and/or are designed with the cloud in mind).

  • There is no escape from the suck-train!

    , wastingtime​withforums wrote


    Well, there's a difference between a random internet ad popping up and the OS itself presenting an "upgrade" that does pretty much exactly the opposite of what the term commonly means.

    There's your problem right there. You have some asinine idea of what upgrade means.

  • Microsoft taking aim at Linux servers?

    , Bass wrote

    This would be a bigger deal if this didn't already exist: https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dd184075.aspx

    Server Core still has a GUI, albeit a gimped one, and a larger footprint.