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  • the new metro apps are pretty lame...

    All your drama does't change the fact that the "universal" aspect of it is a gimmick. At the end of the day you still end up creating different applications.

    It's only syntactic sugar for library-sharing if you take out all the hype of it. It's not a game-changer in the slightest.

    By that logic, Windows Vista wasn't any different from Windows XP.  They made constant improvements to XP with each service pack, so Vista was obviously the same, righ

    The metro apps should have been better than we're seeing today, even with the feature-set of W8. Darn, the oh so almighty "UWP" apps on Windows 10 are still worse than their win32 counterparts from more than a decade ago (calc, media player etc.)

    The top-list of the appstore is full of gimmicky garbage, the win32 utilities from decades ago in Windows beat their modern/metro/store style/UWP/whatever counterparts with ease and all the true crown jewels from MS are still win32.

    Yet we're supposed to be enthralled by all this stuff, huh?

  • the new metro apps are pretty lame...

    , bondsbw wrote

    *snip*

    It's also very easy to port from HTML 1.0 to HTML5.  Does that mean HTML5 is as useless as HTML 1.0?

    Metro (or whatever it's called) is three years old, four if you count the public betas. And there were constant API improvements along the way in 8.1, update 1 etc..  And most apps are still very "meh". 

    If websites would have had the same usefulness like the very first prototpyes at CERN several years after Mosaic and Netscape people would have questioned HTML as well.

    , bondsbw wrote

    No... this isn't WinRT.  How many times do I have to say that before it penetrates the average skull thickness on this forum?

    Cut it, man.

    UWP is just a new, expanded version of WinRT. Kinda like ASP.NET 2 was to the first version, except that the applications built with the first version of that had far more merit.

    Sure, if you want to go back to the days before universal applications.  That article lists a ton of setup work to share code.  The same instructions for a UWP app is

    1. Create new UWP project in Visual Studio

    Oh look, I'm done.  And I don't have to maintain the complexities that exist in a shared code setup.

    See, it's a gimmick. Syntactic sugar to something that was available before. A beefier VS-template at its core. It's not a game changer in the slightest: Most app developers will keep using iOS and Android (marketshare) and most Windows developers will churn out their win32 applications, because no one is going to throw so much code away for so little benefit.

    Anyone who has a touch screen device.  

    Good God, are you guys still going dreaming on about the hybrid laptop/tablet stuff?

     

    You missed the "convenience" and "downloading" and "installing" and the part of "updating" that actually does the update and the "provisioning" and the "from the Windows Store" parts of what I wrote.  Actually, let's just make it simple and assume you didn't read what I wrote at all.

    What convenience am I missing with my example? You download Chrome, click "next" two, three times and after that it keeps itself updated without any need for a store at all.

    As for the app-store on the desktop in general: The selection is almost completely useless. Most of that crap consists cheap clones of freeware and website gateways (like the Wolfram Alpha one), and it has actually so many scam-apps you have better chances finding something decent for Windows through Google than using the crapstore.

    https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/store/top-grossing/apps/pc

    Crippled VLC-clone for 1.99$, DVD player for 14.99$ and craplets for 5.99$ which can open .zip, .rar AND 7z files!

  • the new metro apps are pretty lame...

    Speaking of gimmicks and Windows 10:

    The continous update model.. WHY?

    Who wants a changing OS every two months? If you confront the usual suspects with this, they usually babble something about "Apple and Google". But that's such a dumb argument. People usually get new OSes there by buying a new device. It's the new iPhone they care about, not the new iOS. The version number of iOS or the automatic updates of it are not particulary cool for the crowd MS wants to target. It's "look at my new phone", not "look at my new Android".

    No one will flock to MS tablets just because Windows is a moving target now (or whatever MS is doing this for - this W10 madness is still about tablets, right?! But wait, they de-emphasized this actually with the new start menu.. so what is this madness about at all?)

    Gimmicky crap like Cortana - you play with it for three days and then you forget it's even there. Voice control on a computer is annoying and has been tried for 20 years (Warp 4 anyone?)

    Same with their "one OS" fetish. Is anyone even caring about phones running the same Windows PCs do? Why are they even advertising with it? Tell your average customers that "Windows 10 runs on this computer and on a phone!" and they couldn't care less. It's like freetards blabberling about Linux running on super computers and routers.

    It's amazing how much time they spent on all this useless garbage.

    "One OS", "Last Windows", "Windows as a service", "Cortana" - all this stuff is either appaling and/or doesn't excite customers in the slightest.

    I didn't like Windows 8, but at least there was a plan behind it, albeit a dumb one (force everyone on metro by brute force to make $ by taking 30%)

    But now they have no idea what they are doing anymore and are throwing crap at the wall to see what sticks.

    Windows 10 is so meh, it doesn't even deserve the epic 20-pages rants Windows 8 was getting.

  • the new metro apps are pretty lame...

    bondsbw wrote

    *snip*

    Assuming you are talking about Windows 10 (UWP) apps.  No, they haven't, they've been around for about a month, and there are practically no third party UWP apps available yet.

    WinRT is not the same as UWP.  UWP is an evolution of WinRT and adds thousands of APIs to it.

    Ah, cut the crap. UWP is just a new fancied up version of Metro/WinRT/modern/Windows apps/Windows store style apps/Windows 8 apps/WTF/BBQ or whatever it was called.

    It's very easy to port 8x to 10:

    https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/apps/mt238322.aspx

    That's like saying it would have been totally OK if applications for Windows in general sucked in 1995, because Windows 95 itself only appeared one month ago.

    , bondsbw wrote

    *snip*

    There are real improvements:

    • the enhanced security sandbox

    OK. It also makes some things nigh on impossible though.

    • an application model that allows the OS to suspend/resume/kill apps as needed when battery and memory are running low

    No one cares on anything non-smartphone. You can get the same funcionality with hibernation.

     

    • the ability to run the same application on different form factors (phones, tablets, PCs, Xbox One, HoloLens, IoT, etc.) with adaptive user interfaces

    You're running maybe the same exe, but if the application has any worth at all, it presents a different GUI for each form factor.

    The users could as well run different applications, and they should, because those are usually far better optimized for each use-case.

    UWP is nothing but a GIMMICK. It's amazing that MS seems to think this is a huge thing or something. The developer still has to create basically two or three applications with this approach: Different GUIs for each form factor, different features etc... if he doesn't do this, the app is completely worthless. No one wants to run a smartphone app on the desktop, and Microsoft doesn't automagically transform your smartphone app into a full-fledged desktop application or vice versa just by using UWP.

    At the end of the day, you have the same binary, but that's pretty much it. All UWP truly does is just having an easier way to distribute common libraries, but that was already possible before:

    http://www.blackdogfoundry.com/blog/creating-a-library-to-be-shared-between-ios-and-mac-os-x/

    • better support for touch

    Who cares on anything non-smartphone, seriously.

    • convenience in downloading/installing/updating/provisioning from the Windows Store (without the need for UAC)

    That's possible with win32 and very easy to do. Just look at Firefox and Chrome. A few automated entries into the task scheduler is all it takes.

    • live tiles, lock screen notifications, toast notifications

    All this stuff so uttery failed on the desktop (and even on the phone given WPs marketshare) I wouldn't even call them a feature.

    • and more

    Like spying deluxe (EULA: We collect [...] teams you follow in a sports app, the stocks you track in a finance app) and adware even in Microsoft's Solitaire. In a paid OS no less (except for upgrading from 7 and 8.1, you pay up in all other use cases, like when getting a new computer)

    Dang, just how did I live without all this greatness?! I feel like a caveman teleported into 2140 seeing metro and Windows 8+!

  • Faulty update time! (And again, W10..)

    , DeathBy​VisualStudio wrote

    I'm puzzled how Microsoft seems to think Windows updates to enterprise customers are equivalent to updates to Facebook on Android?

    Furthermore if home users are serving as another level of beta testers before enterprise users get Windows updates it just leads to opportunity for Windows to get bad press from an update gone wrong.

    IMO both of these issues just add to the bad-mouthing of Windows in the enterprise. Why give business customers another reason to look at Apple or Google? Is Microsoft back to the idea that Windows is impervious to market share loss? Sure sounds like it.

    I would call that behavior suicide by cloning. Removing key features which stood out and thus become indistinguishable from the competiton. This utterly fails pretty much every time though, because your current customers get dismayed and new ones won't come - they will stay with the established product you cloned!

    Note, "cloning" and "copying features" are two different things. It's OK to copy a feature, say virtual desktops, but if you clone the whole experience to the letter and toss out all your previous benefits (like the whole spyware and adware aspect, despite harping about "gmail man" and "scroogled" just two years ago) you made your own product (even your whole company) irrelevant.

    A good example is Opera: They made a Chrome-clone out of their unique product, the result was that Chromers stayed where they are and the traditional Opera customers flocked to the competiton.

    This can also be very often seen in games, take Command and Conquer 4, where they have tossed the traditional base building the fans were accustomed to and copied the instant-action model of more popular competiton at the same. The result was that the players from the other titles stayed where the are, but the established fans became angry and the franchise died.

    Since W8, Microsoft took that principle and elevated it to a mantra for the whole company. From 2012-14 it was all about cloning Apple, since Nadella took helm it's about Google.

  • Faulty update time! (And again, W10..)

    , bondsbw wrote

    @cheong:  That blog never suggested that non-enterprise users are beta testers. 

    Of course it did. "enterprises will be able to receive feature updates after their quality and application compatibility has been assessed in the consumer market" 

    Obviously, in the time of shitstorms, they can't outright say that "home users will be used as beta testers for our big-money clients" on their very own website. But the quotes in the blog are pretty much that, just sugarcoated.

  • Faulty update time! (And again, W10..)

    , bundyum wrote

    my take on this (and it is only speculation):

    Microsoft knew perfectly well they would encounter this precise scenario (multiple times over the coming months/years) upon implementing this path for home users. They however evaluated the security benefit to the whole ecosystem to be higher and more important than the impact to the subset of users they predicted it was likely to affect and the negative PR it would inevitably generate.

    Yeah, right, it's all about security and privacy, that's why W10 phones home left and right and has the most lovable EULA of any MS product to date.

    No, forced updates are about using the home users as beta testers for the business users, and to force any "services" MS deems neccessary for their bottom-line in the future.

    Microsoft even admits it outright, at least the beta tester part:

    https://blogs.windows.com/business/2015/01/30/windows-10-for-enterprise-more-secure-and-up-to-date/

    By putting devices on the Current branch for Business, enterprises will be able to receive feature updates after their quality and application compatibility has been assessed in the consumer market

    By the time Current branch for Business machines are updated, the changes will have been validated by millions of Insiders, consumers and customers' internal test processes for several months, allowing updates to be deployed with this increased assurance of validation.

    That's it. Any other "nice" explanations are wishful thinking given the "our users? beep them" string of actions and attitudes of this company in the last three years.

  • Faulty update time! (And again, W10..)

    , kettch wrote

    *snip*

    It's likely much less than 1%, and of that tiny fraction, only a further tiny fraction would even know what happened if there was a bad update. Of that group, it would be a good idea if they ran Pro. If they run Home knowing the risk, then they don't have any reason to complain.

    Oh noes, the dreaded "no one used it anyway" argument, which also was used during the W8 start menu days.

    If no one used the granular controls of Windows Update, why have they bothered to change it the first place?

    Rhetoricus Microsoftus:

    1. Some people turned Windows Update off or declined updates

    2. Thus we are forcing updates now

    3. But no one will notice anway, because no one bothered to change the default WU-settings in the first place!

    That's the patented talk and logic that made Windows 8, 8.1, original Xbone, all-caps VS, bleached-Office etc. into the smash hits they were.

  • Faulty update time! (And again, W10..)

    , kettch wrote

    *snip*

    Most likely the failure rate is no different than it's ever been, but people need something to complain about.

    Except that THIS TIME YOU CANNOT STOP UPDATES.

    Microsoft have invalidated that argument completely. Even if only 1% of the user base have this issue, that's TERRIBLY bad given the absolute numbers and that the FRIGGING UPDATES ARE FRIGGING FORCED.

    That's the stupid bed Microsoft made for themselves and now they need to lie in it.

  • Faulty update time! (And again, W10..)

    , DeathBy​VisualStudio wrote

    Looks like WTWF was right after all... More egg on Microsoft's face. I'm sure this kind of problem really helps sell W10 in the enterprise.

    Of course I am right. Basic common sense. I had seen more than enough cases where PCs got bricked by faulty updates and the remedy was to hide the offending updates. You really don't need crystall ball to conclude that removing the ability to control updates would thus cause huge problems in the long run.

    Either Microsoft's programmers are gonna be replaced by magical fairies or control of updates is a must. Everything else is a disaster, it's really THAT SIMPLE.

    Microsoft is totally deluded thinking that some amateur insider program would be an adequate solution for this problem, that's just stupid. As are Microsoft's arguments for forced updates as a whole:

    Browsers do this, as do iPhones! :P :P :P  Oh really?! 

    Sorry, but a PC OS is a far more complicated affair than a browser or a smartphone, given all the possible software and hardware configurations and use cases. Microsoft reasonings on this matter probably fall into a dozen of "argumentum ad.." fallacies.

    Some people don't have automatic updates activated! :P :P :P :P  SO WHAT?

    We haven't had an outbreak of Blaster-proportions for quite some time, so the update regime seemed to work more or less. And it probably worked because the updates weren't done in a dictatorial manner. Had a problem? Hide the update! You're doing something where a restart would be a problem? Deactivate updates for a while! F*CKING SIMPLE STUFF.

    But now you need to cripple brute-forcely the Windows Update Service as a whole: How the heck is that better? And that's just what people will increasingly do the more annoying WU gets. The internet is already full of tutorials on how to kill WU completely on W10. People will do this. How is completely killing WU better for MS than the fine-granular control in W7? Stupid.

    This company is whacked since 2012, completely whacked. Windows 8, Original Xbone, bleached out Office, the updater in Windows 10.. it was so frigging retardedly obvious that all this stuff would bomb, you really don't need to be a genius for this, turning on basic common sense and it flies straight into your face how STUPID all these decisions were, at the first frigging glance.

    Microsoft's main problem is that all their conclusions since 2012 are completely retarded and defy any sane logic. They all go like this:

    1. Flies eat excrement
    2. Flies and humans are lifeforms
    3. Humans should eat sh*t.

    1. Boats swim
    2. Boats and cars are vehicles
    3. Cars swim

    Yeah, it's totally stupid, but exactly this logic forms the basis of ALL newer Microsoft products:

    1. Smartphones are touch-based
    2. Smartphones and PCs are computers
    3. PCs should be touch-centric

    Usability and ergonomics? What's that?

    1. Many games on the PC are online-activated
    2. Consoles play games
    3. Xbone should have maxi-DRM

    No thought whatsoever that the reason many gamers ended up on the console in the first place was because they were fed up by that DRMization on the PC, and no thought whatsoever about the established practice of second-hand games on consoles. That they would reap a shitstorm was an absolute given.

    1. Chrome doesn't let you control the update-process
    2. Chrome and Windows are both software
    3. The update process on Windows should be crippled

    Microsoft's logic of the past three years makes sense only for like 100 miliseconds: The timespan the brain needs until all the logic-centers are activated. After this your brain just screams "Wait, this doesn't make sense at all. This is STUPID".

    Damn, I once liked this company.