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Countdown to MIX11: Joe Belfiore Talks Phone

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Keynoting for the second time at MIX vice president of Windows Phone program management, JoeB, joins (our second to last!) countdown show this week to let us in on what he’s been up to. Joe and his team are responsible for the design and software product definition of forthcoming generations of Windows phones, so yea, it’s been a busy year.  In fact, all things ending in “o” are pretty important to Joe.  Might he be foreshadowing a little bit of his MIX keynote!?  http://live.visitmix.com

UPDATE: This interview has created a great deal of conversation and many of you have expressed angst with the update process. In true Channel 9 fashion, Joe has responded to your feedback and will continue to engage you in conversation at MIX11. Please see his reply.

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  • Joe B should go visit this forum:

    http://windowsteamblog.com/windows_phone/b/windowsphone/archive/2011/03/23/copy-and-paste-update-status.aspx

    "So far, so good!" are u kidding me !?!

  • Yes.  It is not going well at all.  There are quite a few Windows Phone 7 customers who are very frusturated with Joe and how poorly the update process has been managed, myself included. 

    I think he may want to consider stepping down and letting someone take over the reigns who can bring some credibility back to the Windows Phone 7 team, especially after trotting Steve Ballmer out at the World Mobile Conference to plug the NoDo update and how it would be released to consumers in early March.  It now looks like we may not get it for months, if ever, on the AT&T network.  AT&T customer service isn't even aware that they are testing the update from February.

    As a result of the debacle which is the NoDo update, it also appears that the number of WP7 handsets for sale on Ebay is skyrocketing.  The media is picking up on the confusion and misinformation coming out of folks like Joe and having a field day with it at the expense of the entire team working on the product.

  • Bobby CannonBobby Cannon

    Has Joe even seen the US "Where is my update" page? No one has the update unless they have purchase the new "Arrive" phone. This is rediculious. I almost said this is "getting" but it's already there. I afraid that it's too late to recoup from this bad update mess. I'm such a WP7 fan boy but I'm losing interest fast and I'm not suggesting anyone the phone until I have faith again. WP7 Team, Get your act together before you get an even worse reputation. You had such a good start but now you have fallen on your face. I just hope you can get up and finish the race...
    "AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH" - WP7 Customer

  • HarshaHarsha

    lol...
    So far so good?
    Windows Phone Team your platform is burning

  • CurtKCurtK

    It's like watching Charlie Sheen say "WINNING" while obviously melting down. You guys really need to review the "Where's My Update" page comments before having the happy talk interviews.

  • JasonJason

    Not happy about this whole update fiasco. Why am I still waiting for an update that was scheduled to be delievered weeks ago? Joe B. needs to head over to the Widnows Phone Blog and see what the actual users are saying about this mess. - Samsung Focus, At&t
    Signed,
    An Increasingly-frustrated Windows Phone User

  • Bobby CannonBobby Cannon

    Joe read this too see how great everything is going...
    http://windowsteamblog.com/windows_phone/b/windowsphone/archive/2011/03/23/copy-and-paste-update-status.aspx

  • CurtKCurtK

    Really? I mean, have you guys MET the internet? This is like a textbook case of how not to handle things.

  • WarnieWarnie

    I'm just going to copy what I posted over on the Windows Phone Blog in the vain hope it gets read:
    This is beyond ridiculous now.Let me be clear, this is the first time in a VERY long time I've been an "early adopter" of a new platform, but I felt the Windows Phone 7 platform had a lot going for it and, even if it couldn't give Android or iOS a major run, it could stand on its own. I have defended this platform for months, through tons of posts on a myriad of sites declaring it dead out of the gate, with folks calling it the next "Kin". And now I feel like everything I've ever said in defense of the platform has turned out to be a complete farce.You give us a chart that tells us it could be weeks (if ever) to get out of the testing phase, then maybe 10 days before the scheduling phase, then "several weeks" before it's delivered? Basically, you're not telling us ANYTHING about the timeframe. At all. It's just smoke and mirrors. Why? Because you don't want to offend the TELCOs? Like Apple, you engineered this platform to be easy to update by mandating minimum hardware requirements and platform and OS do's-and-don'ts so updating could be done, across the board, regardless of carrier or OEM (since all phones are 'technically' the same base platform). Instead, you want to shovel all of the blame to the carriers and/or OEMs and it's somehow going well?I'm starting to wonder, myself, if Windows Phone 7 IS the next Kin. I'm impressed with Office and Xbox Live on it, but your lack of communication is KILLING this platform, and I don't just mean in terms of updates. You can't find any Microsoft site that tells you what the schedule of new Xbox Live games is, yet the official Xbox.com/phone site has been advertising the upcoming "Must Have Games" promotion for a month with NO date given on when this is supposed to start.I'm stuck in a 2 year contract on a phone platform that I'm starting to think MIGHT ACTUALLY be dead by summer. All my Microsoft Certifications and all my experience supporting and developing for Microsoft platforms aside, if the platform dies like Kin did, I will GLADLY start the proceedings for a class action lawsuit to make sure Microsoft pays the Early Termination Fees of anyone who wants out from under a dead platform.

  • WarnieWarnie

    I hate it when my paragraphs get eaten. (Sorry for the wall of text.)

  • dkb1898dkb1898

    Really? You obviously don't listen to any of your real customers!

  • I am am early adoptor... using Samsung Focus on fucking At&T. I want the fucking update NOW. Stop talking bull *... no customer is happy....and I registered here just to show my disappointment... read the comments on that useless Windows phone blog and the Windows phone 7 FB page and everywhere on the internet... stop talking BS and deliver the freaking update... 

    By the way I have started warning all my friends and family and will start writing blogs to keep away from WP7 platform.

  • kierepkakierepka Yes it is me :)

    No...no... NoDO - Failureis a verydelicatewords,ifwe are talking aboutthe updates for WP7.Please made everythingtokeepWP7fromthe fate ofKin or ZUNE. Please...

  • dkb1898dkb1898

    More over promise, under deliver, and ignoring anything customers are saying. When we get the magical Mango update in 2012 will you include all the missing features from the previous version of Windows Phone, Windows Mobile 6.5. If you expect to get on stage at MIX with more magical suprises coming in Mango and don't address any of the real nitty gritty things that are needed to make this on par with 6.5, iOS, and Android, you will be laughed off of the stage!

  • koycekoyce

    consmer satisfaction was great untill you decided not to give us our update

  • vbgeezervbgeezer

    Joe if you think 90% of your user base is still happy you are dreaming. This is a joke and a discrace. If anyone starts class action against MS I would be there in a hearbeat.
    The MAIN selling point of WP7 was that it will QUICKLY catch and overtake other offerings through REGULAR updates. You are LIARS!

  • AbtinAbtin

    Dear MS why are you taking so much care about carriers??? We are the customers and pay several 100 of $/€ for WP! So let the carriers out of the update game and  deliver the updates directly to us! I'm a WP fan and allways defend it but it's getting harder to find any argument for wp7 at that moment! Look at your competitors like apple. they released several updates during the last six month and most of them bevor the publishing date!

  • Pushed2FarPushed2Far

    It's been a long time since I've watched an interview that made me want to jump through my screen and strangle somebody like this one did.  What a bunch of PR nonsense.  
     
    Joe, seriously, what are you smoking?  You and the rest of the WP7 team have NOT delivered 2 updates to Windows Phone 7.  Until ALL of us WP7 users have them, you get zero credit for delivering anything.  As it stands right now, not a single AT&T customer (maybe you've heard of them? - they are your "premier" partner) has been offered the updates, and AT&T has no coment on when [or even IF] they'll release it.  Meanwhile, MS is "throttling" the release so slowly that it's taking WEEKS for you to distribute the updates to even those customers whose carriers have given the updates their blessing.  
     
    And stop quoting those damn customer satisfaction ratings!  Most of us who are now furious were among those who loved our phones and first and said we'd recommend them to others.  Now, nearly six months later without a single update or bug fix, and plenty of experience with the daily problems and limitations, we're not nearly so happy.  I DARE you to do a follow-up survey.  No, don't bother...just start pumping out the updates.  You seem to have absolutely no idea how far behind you are, and how much damage has been done in the last few months.
     
    I hope you and your team get hit HARD with the TOUGH questions at MIX, instead of the fluff you got from these two. 
     

  • Dimitris IliopoulosDimitris Iliopoulos

    It's funny that these people say that everything is Ok with the update and that they have done a good job!!! I think that they live in another planet! I stopped watching the video because i don't want to hear lies about a product that i have paid for! Previously i used a phone from a competitorand they were by far more reliable! Get serious!

  • rsgrsg

    Understandably the updates are late as hell, I unbranded my HTC to get mine done.
    However, had this been the other way round and the update caused problem with certain carriers, everyone would still be screaming blue murder just the same.

  • Go Microsoft !!!!!!!Dovella Go Microsoft !!!!!!!

    Since the end of October 2010 the new smartphone os by Microsoft, AKA Windows Phone 7 is available. Five months have passed and some interesting results are peeping out. The marketplace just passed 11 thousands apps available, Nokia has signed an agreement with Microsoft for creating devices that will soon be available in Europe (by the end of 2011 and first half 2012). The first update “NoDo” is out on these days carrying some basic functionalities that maybe should have been delivered from day one.

    The next interesting update, codename “Mango” is due to arrive by the end of 2011. By the same time periods also due the public beta of Windows 8. This is expected to be a revolutionary upgrade of Windows in the very key aspects such as ARM chips support (and of course x86 processors as usual). It is said that Windows 8 will use the Windows Phone 7 kernel in order to streamline the compatibility among devices such as smartphones and tablet-pcs. So, if we consider the Windows 8 Beta and Windows Phone 7 “Mango” release timelines, the kernel should –and could- be already compiled (it happened before with Windows Vista SP1, Windows Server 2008 and Windows 7: Vista just tuned in with other products by delivering the SP1).

    What is Microsoft (or, better, the WP7 team altogether) doing wrong?

    Evaluating the feedback I personally received, here are 3 major feeble points, in my opinion:

    1. Certification process made with Carriers for every single update.

    2. Lack of substantial transparency with customers

    3. Bing

    1. Certification process

    The certification process for the Windows Phone 7 updates is just a disaster. I’ve never seen before such a frustration in receiving an update whatsoever. I can’t get why Apple releases a new firmware in the wild just to update even an icon set, teasing customers, without responding to anyone, while Microsoft needs to discuss every single patch they decide to include in any update. Who decided that Carriers should have been involved in this process so deeply to substantially block any update? I guess the responsible of that should be fired immediately but just keep in mind that customers do not need major releases to love a platform. A bunch of small and frequent updates without any carrier interference should suffice to get more love from costumers. Apple goes on always producing patches and fixes for wrong updates while customers silently agree.

    2. Transparency

    WP7 team is highly exposed, from twitter to platform blogs, but during crisis periods no one answers or just clarifies with enough honesty. Announcing a specific and unique release date for general availability should be sufficient.

    I have the idea that so often geeks and followers are left alone into the news-eaters arena while we all are waiting for some MS Miracle by plugging and unplugging the device to the Zune software to see magically appear the so-long-waited update. I suggest to get

    more affordable beta-testers for each nation if you are trapped in the “Samsung Syndrome”.

    Bing

    Bing US is just ok but here in Italy is a complete disaster. “Our” Bing is tied to the old Live Search engine and in everyday use it always happens that if you search “tomatoes” it returns “chips and salads”. If I change the display language into English (us) I have far more better results but why on earth is this supposed to be a customer problem? Why Bing Italy is still under beta mode and doesn’t offer vocal search on WP7 just as US devices do? It’s so weird that Bing goes on progressing on other platforms while WP7 seems to be kep apart. At this time I have no feeling to support anymore this platform. I won’t change it just because Android is really horrible and iOS forces you to upgrade the device every 6-9 months. I simply leave my device to its destiny wishing good luck to Microsoft.

  • Go Microsoft !!!!!!!Dovella Go Microsoft !!!!!!!

    PS

    Mr. Belfiore , this is Update  FAIL by iphone and Android

    butthisis notthepublicperceives it,andjournalistsdo nottalk about

    http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=iphone+update+fail

    http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=iphone+update+fail#sclient=psy&hl=en&source=hp&q=android+update+fail&aq=f&aqi=g4&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=d3cf963e1097ce14

     

     

     

     

  • pdgpdg

    @Harsha:No it's not.
    I do hate the whole NoDo drama, but WP7 is still a terrific platform with a backing by developers beyond expectations.
    I just hope they'll iron the update process: I'm pretty pissed now, but there are no reasons not to love this OS anymore.

  • Wow, you people need to calm down! Some of you are talking about lawsuits? Seriously? For what? Delaying an update because it was bricking phones? I'd say that's being responsible. What if they had just pushed it through, how happy do you think people would be then?

  • I'm here to voice my fraustrations about this whole Windows Phone 7 update process AND with Microsoft.

    The terrible communication between MS, Carriers and Consumers. Just what the hell is this "TESTING" phase for when this copy n paste update has been finalized since December?

    Many of the fraustrated consumers are the ones who have defended this Platform because it's very good and has so much potential which now seems to be put on hold because of this entire nightmare of no one knowing whats going on and who's at fault and no one wants to take responsibility for whats happend.

    Microsoft you don't have any TIME to spare with your (now) customer satisfaction going down the drain while you're still trying to play catch up with your competitors.

    I feel like if we're to stick with you guys through this whole mess we should be rewarded with a early "MANGO" update release by Summer as soon as you fix this Windows Phone Update mess since you guys seem to be displaying these Multi-tasking, IE9, HTML5 etc in REAL-TIME on events.

    I really don't want Windows Phone 7 to FAIL because of poor decisions/handling by Microsoft to execute on their promises. I however CANNOT recommend any of my friends/family to get a WP7 phone anymore unless this gets resolved ASAP!

     

     

     

     

     

     

  • I can’t believe you guys post this PR BS on channel 9. You think the ppl who come on here are a bunch of dummies. 

    "The February update is on most phones now".

    Really? Are kidding me, I have got an open market unbranded Omnia 7 and I have received no update with no clue If i ever will. I bought this phone knowing fully well about some missing features and bugs, but I bought it because MS promised quick and frequent update directly from MS. I was expecting something similar to the Windows update processes only to find out that this is going to be worse than that of Android.

    There are so many issues and bugs I have with my Omnia 7 ranging from the market place crashing becoming unresponsive till i restart the phone, WIFI/3G refusing to connect till I restart, suddenly no sound from the device till I restart, to missing features. I knew about missing features such as copy and paste and multitasking but I could not believe simple features as customized ring tone, saving my darm camera settings, separate volumes for separate functions, I can go on, where going to be missing as well.

    These bugs and simple missing features make it really frustrating to use the device, now it seems that I'm going to have to go through this heartache to get updates when and if these features are fixed, and I find this really unacceptable. 

    I have stopped recommending WP7 to my friend and colleague who see it and like the UI and want to buy one, because really there is absolutely NO reason now to get a WP7 device over and iPhone nor an Android device, none. It makes me feel like a traitor but WP7 is lacking so many features and with an update process like this then you might just be stuck on whichever build of the OS you buy.

    Coming from a Nokia 5800 to the Omnia 7, I wonder why Nokia is adopting WP7, my 5800 Symbian device did so many thing right that WP7 gets so wrong. The frustration of users coming from Symbian to WP7 is going to be huge.

    I spent 450 Euros for my Omnia 7, and looking back now what a dumb a** decision that was, with that price I could have gotten a very high end Android phone and 100 Euro more I would have gotten the iPhone 4 and not have to deal with this BS.

    Well I am going to wait till the end April, and if I don’t get the update by then (for an unbranded open market phone), then it’s over. I will count my loses, sell my Omnia 7 at whatever price, get an Android or an iPhone and NEVER EVER AGAIN buy MS phone.

     

  • Honestly I don't see what all the fuss is about, I'm happy with my Windows Phone, and I'll be happy when I get the update, am I going to keep checking for updates in Zune, no, nor are the vast majority of users who are just using it as a smartphone, who will one day get a surprise update pop up.  Late Feb or early March I had the pre-NoDo announce itself, cool, was it straight away, no, but what's the rush?

    Updates roll out over a couple of months.  That's fine.  How much of an improvement is that over Android or Windows Mobile?  Vastly improved.

    Sure its not up to the iPhone pace, but then Microsoft aren't in a position to strongarm phone companies around like Apple.

    Some of the people here saying they'll ditch the platform if they don't get the update within X number of weeks just sound childish (with too much money to waste by the sound of it) and don't seem to understand the difficulty of balancing the interests of manufacterers, networks and customers.

  • PhilSPhilS

    Why can't Microsoft make available beta or RC versions of the update for users that want to try it at their own risk??

  • @daSmirnov 

    Obviously you are referring to me, and childish? Oh please! All I want is for my phone to crashing, for the Wi-Fi/3G connection to stop freezing, for my phone to stop going silent all of a sudden leading to miss calls, all I need is fixes to these bugs. If that makes me childish then I’m a child. 

    EDIT:

    @daSmirnov 

    I just looked up your blogs, you seem to be one of them MS evangelist. No wonder, preach on.

  • readerreader

    @ZuurKen: Go and get an Android. You won't have to worry about updates anymore. (Because you won't get any. Ever.)

  • falkenfalken

    To all of you who is screaming .... ist only Phone. Be happy. It will be better and better and finally best :-). MS, keep your hard work to manage all early issues well. Too much things of todays world are happening too quickly without thinking... Thank you.

  • @reader

    Yea, at the end of April if I still dont get the update.

    At least with Android I get a device with all the basic features you'd expect in a "Smartphone", not a smartphone I cant customize my goddamn ringtone.

  • readerreader

    @ZuurKen: "Ringtones" don't make a phone smart. In case you're wondering, wallpapers aren't either.

  • Tom StackTyphoon87 Facilitator of our reality

    Why does the international status page show operators status butthe us one only shows phone names?

  • Joe, check your inbox.  You know the update is not going well, that communication from MS regarding the issue is terrible, and that the people who care most about the product are angry.  Do something about it.

  • CharlesCharles Welcome Change

    Looks like this struck a nerve, eh? Smiley

    It's of course fine to speak your mind... Please do so respectfully.
    C

  • WarnieWarnie

    Still pointing to the Samsung issue is laughable. How long are they going to ride that excuse? Until next month? Next year? I get it, I made the same defenses on sites claiming the platform was dead on arrival. The issue should be VERY resolved by now, and even if it isn't, why are people who have LG or HTC phones being hung out to dry?
    This entire thing is mismanagement of the highest degree. Carriers should not be impeeding the upgrade process, and Microsoft should have NEVER signed off on giving them total control over update certification. In the months since release of WP7 devices, Apple has pushed out several updates, including 2 in one month, and all we've gotten are A HANDFUL OF BLOG POSTS saying they're "working on it" at Microsoft.
    As for talking about lawsuits, the facts are pretty simple: Sales of Windows Phone 7 was predicated, in part, on Microsoft's statements that they would be providing regular, frequent updates. They have done neither, and their inability to do so has caused many people to get locked into contracts beyond the 30 day return period. The product itself is borderline defective, with it locking up and crashing multiple times a day during what is described as "normal usage", and there have been, to date, no attempt to address these issues at the consumer level. So, yes, a CLA against both MSFT and AT&T is JUSTIFIED for customers who want out of the contract based on false advertising and a defective product. If they completely abandon the platform because their ineptitude caused it to lose all market relevance, just like they did with the KIN (which is the path we're rapidly heading down), you damn well better expect a CLA against MSFT to get customers out of the dead end they all put consumers in for both the KIN and WP7 devices.
    The time for making excuses and coming to the defense of Microsoft is over. It is time for Microsoft to get in front of this disaster and get it fixed. If they do not, they are going to watch developers drop off and the platform will die. I don't want either to happen, but I can no longer recommend WP7 to anyone who asks until Microsoft gets their ducks in a row.

  • I like the enthusiasm.  I hope many of you will be at MIX.

    I'm a former Palm Pre user who switched to WP7 because of the potential presented.  Now that WebOS has a second lease on life under HP, I'm seriously considering moving back to that platform.  I'll wait to see what Belfiore and Microsoft say during MIX next month and make a final decision then.  btw, I was a Windows Mobile user before I switched to WebOS.

    I've convinced 8 people to buy a Windows Phone, that's laymen to techies.  Family, friends, and co-workers.  We each have similar and different needs, but after a few months of working with the phones, the lack of quick and timely updates and fixes to bugs and missing features has caused most of those to switch either back to their original phones (mostly iPhone users) or a different competing platform (Android).

    I realize that much of it has been false expectations, but putting out word about a "January" update, oh no wait that's Fe..March, and still here we are in March with said update looking to be out in April.  Who could blame us for those "unreasonable" expectations.

    Speaking for myself here, but I guess I had better hopes for this platform just based on how well updates are handled on the PC and iOS.  I mention iOS because someone brought it up above, but why are Microsoft products on iOS better than their WP7 counterparts?  It's hard to convince people to switch when they literally get a better product (by the same company) on a competing platform.

    If I might request that Belfiore and team seriously consider smaller more frequent updates, instead of these bigger spaced out ones.  At the very least, you could put out "fixes" on the interim while we wait for those NoDo and Mango updates.

    As a tech enthusiast I'd love to see new features (and first party apps), but I'm far more concerned about a lack of fixes to existing functionality.  There's the contacts issue that surfaced recently and yet to be fixed.  Some functionality (like People Hub facebook integration) hardly ever works.  How about fixing those in the interim while we wait for the meatier stuff.  Show us you're paying attention to our needs.  It'll go a long way to calming the vast majority of us.

  • Out of curiosity, what problems are you having with the People hub Facebook integration? It's always worked perfectly for me as far I can tell.

  • Well, Joe is upbeat because he has the update!  He probably has Mango too!

    At any rate, the WP7 platform is great, I have the most solid smartphone experience I ever had with any phone with my LG Quantum.

    I do hate AT&T for taking so long to test the update.  I wish THEY would explain what the process is so we can understand why it takes so long.  I encourage everybody to use twitter to frequently ask them about the testing progress and when it will complete.   Also use facebook and go the "Where is my WP7 update" discussion page at ATT's wall.

    I'm a Systems engineer/Project Engineer by trade and would like to offer my assistance to you at MS.   I think we can work together to solve the problems, or at least communicate them better.

    I do hope some of these more irate people don't do anything foolish, but I can see where they could get miffed by having to wait "several weeks" for a rollout that should take just a week or so.

    My wife and I love Windows Phone 7, and I like being a developer of the platform.  I've not posted anything yet, but I do like the way that Microsoft courts developers.   They do have that part of the equation right.

    As for the update problems, I do expect Microsoft to make the update process better, and faster.

    Microsoft, you can reach me through my login here if you wish.

    Enjoy Windows Phone 7, everybody.

     

  • Go Microsoft !!!!!!!Dovella Go Microsoft !!!!!!!

    PS. OT

    hate the fact that iOS users can take a screenshot and share it over twitter. That's something I'll never forgive the WP7 team for

  • Hugh WorthingtonHugh Worthington

    The video doesn't work. If you could include a WebM version that would be good.

  • BasBas It finds lightbulbs.

    I hope there's question time with Joe after the keynote, and that most of the commenters here will be there. And for Joe I hope he'll have a better story by then. We'll see.

  • People need to chill the f*** out. If you're going to use Apple as the basis for comparison, then consider that they have only a few models to worry about and that they build the hardware themselves. They can skip the entire certification process that Microsoft has to go through with OEMs. Since Apple also operates its own retail channel (Apple Stores), they can practically skip the carrier certification process too. If Apple sends out an update that bricks their devices, you bring the device into an Apple Store. The carriers don't have to worry about it. With Windows Phone 7 devices (and Android devices for that matter), you have to bring the device back to the carrier's retail outlets.

    If you feel waiting for the update process is unbearable, get yourself to an Apple Store and go buy yourself an iPhone. You can choose from the wide selection of models: from the 3.5" display model to the 3.5" display model or from the model without hardware keyboard to the model without hardware keyboard.

    See my point? There is no such thing as a free lunch. If you want complete freedom of choice in terms of hardware (like Android), then you have to wait for the OEM decide when (or IF) they're going to update the device.

    If you're willing to give up any choice of hardware in favor of quick updates to the OS, then go with Apple's offering.

    If you want something in between (a decent selection of hardware from a handful of manufacturers but a consistent UX), then you go with Windows Phone 7. But you have to understand that updates will NEVER come as fast as Apple's updates. However, you can be damn sure that you will be getting the updates, something that's no guarantee with Android devices.

  • KenKen

    We are tired of chilling out. Joe is spouting corporate bs. MS own website shows that no one in the U.S. has gotten the Feb update. If Joe doesn't know that (being in charge of WP7) he's an idiot. If he does know that, he's covering up the truth which is MS cannot update WP7 devices as expected or promised. 
    MS stated and pushed and was proud to acknowledge that they would be updating this product often. They haven't. They blew it.
    These devices have a life span of 1.5-2.0 years. We all know carriers do not like to update products nearing the end of that 2 year mark because they want us to buy another device and lock into another 2 year contract. I am already 4 months into my experience and the relatively small copy andpaste update hasn't hapenned yet. Four months doesn't sound like a long time but MS has alot of catching up to do and not alot of time to do it.
    I don't see the mango update hapenning on time considering this constant muckup from the parties involved and I see all of us early adopters stuck with inferior software till our contracts are over. Or we pay a little extra at the one year mark.
    I don't elect the mango update to cure alot of the annoying ills in the software at any rate. When do we get a working camera app (that saves our setting?) When do we get turn by turn directions? When do we get an actual RDP client. When do we get ringtones that are customizable? When do we get a Skype client?
    These are dependent on locked parts of the os that developers can't get to. With no word from MS on when they might be able to use them.
    Im a little embarrassed that I have to carry around an Android tablet to do remote MS admin work when my ancient WM6 device worked just fine three years ago. My day to day work life has been impacted by being an early adopter. This phone is costing me time and money. Im done. Finished.
    eBay gets my HD7 and hello Andriod my not so old yet perfectly usable friend.
    Ken

  • andyandy

    you must be kidding. My phone can't even install the february update properly !!!

  • Michael HansenMichael Hansen

    i like this , but what about the hardware float point for xna , is it only Microsoft IE9 that use this
    and custrom shaders as well , it is importen if we what the Phone 7 to stand out from apple and android
     

  • This is a repost of what I posted to the Windows Team Blog.  I am hopeful that Joe will get things together this weekend and respond to some of the criticism that is being (probably rightfully) leveled against the platform and the product team.

    There are some things I really don't understand about the roadmap and process that Joe, Eric, and the Windows Phone team have come up with and, if they want this product to be successful, need to be addressed sooner rather than later.  

    First, why are there no plans to deliver on the promise of small, frequent updates?  This whole debacle may have been avoided if they had started releasing updates to minor issues back in November/December 2010.  That would have given them an opportunity to vet the update process well in advance of a major feature release.  Heck, as a developer, I would have probably released an update right after launch that did nothing; just to work the necessary coordination with the carriers and discover any technical issues with the update process early.

    Second, two updates a year is not enough for a platform that is as behind the curve as this one against hardware products with this short of a lifespan.  Updates, at the very least, need to be released to consumers quarterly.  It would be preferable to have them happenning twice a quarter until they get caught up with features that their competition has had since before the platform was even released.  I highly recommend that they go back and revisit the Mango roadmap and future update roadmaps and break everything down into incremental updates, releasing features and fixes as soon as they are finished.  I just don't see the waterfall approach this team seems to have adopted being adequate.  They are going to have to become much more agile very quickly if they have any hope of success.

    Third, the communication amongst members of the team seems to be severely lacking or non-existant.  Why was Joe allowed to go on Channel 9 and sing the praises of an update process that is failing miserably?  Is he not communicating with Eric and the rest of his team?  Why did they trot Steve Ballmer out at the World Mobile Congress to state that the update would be out in early March when there was obviously no chance of that happenning even if they didn't slip the delivery date?  Is it not understood that these actions make it appear to the rest of the world that Microsoft's management team from the CEO on down is either incompetent or purposely misleading their investors and customers?  When there are problems, why aren't they communicating these directly to their consumers? Consumers are much more understanding when they don't feel they are being purposely misinformed or kept in the dark.

    Fourth, why did Microsoft reneg on its promise to control the update ecosystem independent of the carriers?  They were warned by many leading industry figures that this would be problamatic at best, and at worst would be a disaster for the platform.  Heck, I told a few of the team members this myself and originally we developers and early adopters were assured that carriers would not have a say.  This was a colossal mistake.  What happened?

    Fifth, why is noone addressing concerns posted here and on Channel 9 over the weekend?  This leaves the impression that Joe, Eric, and the rest of the product team are not willing to put in the time it takes to address their customer's questions and concerns.  Is Joe more concerned about writing his keynote speech for MIX than he is about keeping customers on the platform?  I can say that the anger and frustration being expressed on these forums are very concerning to those of us who are partners and/or developers.  This has caused us to halt development against Windows Phone 7 and focus our full attention on the Android platform first.  My guess is that many other developers will be quickly following suit until these issues are addressed.

    I cannot recommend enough that the Windows Phone 7 team get out in front of this before it gets any worse.  Pick up the phone, make some calls, and get on top of it this weekend.  Communicate with each other and with your customers, partners, and developers.  By Monday afternoon I would expect that you are able to produce a table containing actual dates when the update will be released.  I would also expect that within the next week that you announce you are going to fracture the Mango update into several smaller updates which will be released over the coming months.  You guys have built the start of a great platform here.  Now is the time to get your act together.  Don't destroy what your company has invested so much time, money, and effort to accomplish.

  • First of all, I got myself a Windows Phone 7 because I really do like its UI and responsivness of the OS. But after using it for 4 months, I'm starting to regret getting it.

    First of all, WP7 updates. The pre-NoDo is not updating well on my Omnia 7. Then followed by all the delaying of NoDo updates. No dates confirmed and what MS did was to give some simple news to pacify its customers.

    Second, the Copy & Paste is so poorly done! Look at the pathetic selectors! Those markers are as small as ants! Who in the world can use them with ease?! Is MS trying to patch the holes for the OS?

    Third. We have to wait till late 2011 in order to get the app switching and multitasking, functions that iOS and Android already having. Is WP7 suppose to be a smart phone? It can't even allow the user to switch between open apps and multitask! By end of 2011? Looking at things now, I bet we will only get Mango on 2012.

    Forth. WP7 is having some performance issues if you haven't notice. When one exit from a heavy game / app, the phone will freeze and the tiles will not even display properly. I need to wait for it to recover before I can do anything. And to make things worse, every app which displays list with graphics and text will results in difficult with scrolling. Take a look at the bloody Facebook app and you will understand.

    Fifth. Damn expensive apps and games. Why is it that games like Fruit ninja and other titles ported from other platforms cost so much more?! Just because it is a Xbox Live game? Who cares about that! I only want to enjoy the game with the same price like the rival platforms. One must be a fool to get WP7 just to enjoy a more expensive games / apps and I'm that fool.

    Last but not least, when are we going to have better map and search supports? BING is totally USELESS OUTSIDE USA! I need to include my country name in order to do a proper search. And the BING map is not informative at all. Please take a look how much Google maps have improved over the years!

    Well, I'm not sure if I can wait till late 2011 for the Mango update. If Apple is releasing a much better dual cores iPhone 5, I'm abandoning WP7 and get a iPhone 5 instead. I gave MS a chance, and this is how MS treat its customers with slow updates and excuses.

  • James Ashleyjamesashley mostly harmless

    The Nokia relationship is very exciting.

  • @reader: Is about customisation.... And making WP7 looks dumd as compared to other platforms.
  • readerreader

    @chmun77: You don't have to use the selectors. Just touch a word then slide your finger, that will select the text. Those are just little indicators showing there is a text selection going on.

  • readerreader

    @chmun77: WP7 is only as dumb as its user. Mine is colourful and informative. How about yours?

  • Thanks, Joe, we're all rooting for you and Wndows Phone 7.  It works great now, but it can be SO MUCH BETTER. 

    But better takes time.   How much time is a problem, because every ticking second lowers the customer response numbers, and the developer value. 

    This video is relatively old in internet time, but Unfortunately, some specific quotes from it worry me. 

    NoDo "We expect to get them all out there, in a matter of time, depending on
    specifics."   We need to know when.  I'm on AT&T with an LG Quantum which I love.  I expect Microsoft and AT&T to have a meeting on Monday March 28th, and the go online and even on TV and discuss specifics, AND commitments.


    Mango: "Significant update release we’ll have available more toward the end of this
    year."    You guys know that this is what everyone is waiting for, and the feature set that will make WP7 on par with Android and iOS.    NOW is the time to make commitments on that as well.  If you need a few more engineers to pull in the schedule, GET THEM and DO IT.  An excellent time to get Mango into the hands of AT&T customers is September, when most people start holiday buying.   If EVERYTHING won't make it, release a smaller update.

    In fact, I think a 3 month update schedule would be best.   I know this will mean a lot of testing, but your testing should be very automated after this update cycle, so it is do-able.

    On the other hand, I am happy to hear that the Verizon iOS 4.3.1 update is delayed, but the AT&T isn't.  That makes me giggle a little, because Apple can get a little bad press as well.

    Enjoy Windows Phone 7

    -e

  • Here's what I'd like MS to announce at Mix: Marketplace for Sweden! (Can't believe it hasn't opened yet.)

    That way we won't have to go about and register fake MSN accounts with fake addresses to even access the store and thus make our phones useful, (though not entirely because I still can't actually buy anything because the fake address and my credit card information won't match up.)

    Hurry up, Microsoft!

  • anonymousanonymous

    I would say i feel the same way about this process and the Windows Phone 7 Team being FULL OF BS, but hey I still can't even get a phone. Not on Verizon (the #2 phone provider). I can’t believe i can go to any Verizon store and get an iPhone, how can Microsoft be so blind, how could they let Apple be first on Verizon.
    I understand that there are only so many devs working on this thing, but this is fight for survival. Let me be clear if Microsoft does not get right, that’s it you guys (Microsoft) our done. Just dismantle the company and give the money back to shareholders (in the words of Mr. Dell).
    I think we all get it, Microsoft had to release something, but this OS needs to be updated on monthly basis. It needs to at the same level that Google and Apple are. Btw I do feel as pissed off as everyone else. I just cannot believe how this is happening, in any other company heads would be rolling by now.
     

  • CharlesCharles Welcome Change

    This is from Joe Belfiore:

    Many of you are making critical comments here which are certainly fair.  First, I was wrong when I said  “most people have received the February update.” There are many of you who have yet to receive it, and I don’t blame you for speaking up and pointing out my mistake. Second,  I referred to our updates as “complete” because I was thinking of the internal process where we pass completed software to another group who delivers them – but of course no update is complete until you all have it.  Plus, at the time I did the interview we had started the NoDo (“march update”) delivery process and I knew “it was going well” from our perspective:  people were officially getting it, the success rate of its deployment on real-world phones was looking good, and we were happy that the process had STARTED well.  Still—these are NOT the same as all of you getting it and I’m sorry that I came across as insensitive to that fact.

    I am a very, very big advocate for all our end-users and developers, and it bothers me a lot if I sounded out of touch.  I wasn’t as prepared for this interview as I should have been—I walked into the studio with an informal state of mind, thinking about MIX and what we WILL be talking about, and I didn’t have the right up-to-date information to give a good explanation on updates which I know to be a very high-interest topic right now.

    I have read all of the comments here (and many of them on the other blogs) and so has pretty much everyone in our management team.  We know it’s been frustrating to wait for features/fixes and (probably worse) to hear little from us on specific dates. We are sorry the process has been rocky. The “where’s my phone update” table is our first step to try to remedy this in the face of technical problems that have made our first wave of updates take longer than we expected.  We know the table would benefit greatly from more detail, and we are hoping to add more to it by working with the Operators who own the “testing” phase to get more clarity.  If your phone is shown in “scheduling”, it’ll be worth checking the table next week.

    In the spirit of “MIX as a conversation” – I will make sure that when I show up in Vegas that I’m well prepared to give an update in person and to try to answer your questions as best I can.  You folks are obviously a very important audience for us and it’s right for you to expect us to communicate and execute better. I know at this point it’s our actions that matter… The main thing we are trying to do is to get the updates out to everyone in a way that is reliable and works,  and then make our process better and more transparent in the future. 

    Thanks,
    Joe

     

     
  • dkb1898dkb1898

    Joe,
    Thank You! This response means a lot, and I can tell it was very sincere and from the heart! Again Thank You!

  • andyandy

    [quote]
    1 hour ago, Charles wrote
    This is from Joe Belfiore:
    ...
    Thanks,Joe
     
     
    [/quote]
    This is a very small step in the right direction. After all that has happened, after all the time passed without updates on the situation, after the fact that those with the 800705b4 timeout issue have been left in the dark for almost a month and no chance to see it fixed... this could only try to mend the situation. But hey, it's just a lot of words and doesn't change all that is happening:
    - no real news on what is happening and what anyone is working on
    - no change in the problem for next updates ?
    - no fix for those who can't actually update the phone with the error and no update if anyone is still considering us
    - still tons of unanswered comments in blogs
    I'm not mad because this is happening to me. I'm mad because this has the potential to completely screw the image of the platform, like it's already happening
     

  • WarnieWarnie

    Joe,
     
    Thanks for the response and it's fairly clear that it was sincere. I appreciate reading and look forward to hearing more during MIX. However, your response identified the major problem that many of us have been harping on - specifically this quoted section:
     
    "...and we are hoping to add more to it by working with the Operators who own the “testing” phase..."
     
    The Operators SHOULD NOT OWN THE TESTING PHASE. By allowing them to "own" this critical phase, you have effectively given control to every carrier that operates a Windows Phone 7 device to determine the progress, and fragmentation, of the Windows Phone 7 platform. AT&T can just drag their heels forever, and there's little you can do about it. That seriously cannot be what is desired. AT&T isn't going to show due diligence towards any smartphone other than iPhone; Look at how they still treat the Android platform like a step child.
     
    By giving carriers them the testing phase, you are putting a roadblock in between the OS and the end user and, for what? So they can see if it works on their network? AT&T has the February pre-NoDo update listed as "Testing", yet I can change a registry key and get it, change the registry key back, and use it just fine. Since all the phones are required to share minimum hardware requirements, updates should be no more than Microsoft and handset OEMs to ensure compatibility, and then published through Zune. If carriers want to add their own hubs and branding, they can work with Microsoft to create a standalone update that the carriers, themselves, publish OTA.
     
    It's really that simple!
     
    PS. If this site eats my paragraphs again, I apologize in advance.
     

  • CharlesCharles Welcome Change

    Sorry about the anonymous paragraph monster.

    It's a bug most likely. Logged.

    C

  •  Warnie Warnie

    Addendum to my previous:
     
    When I said: "If carriers want to add their own hubs and branding, they can work with Microsoft to create a standalone update that the carriers, themselves, publish OTA." what I mean is since carrier branding and hubs are really nothing more than glorified apps, they can work with Microsoft to update their carrier specific hub and applications and then release the updates as OTA/Marketplace application updates.

  • Joe,

    You're a stand-up guy.   I appreciate that you came here to explain the time-delay between the video and the time the comments.

    I appreciate you know that we as users need the update, want the update, and would love to have the update.

    I believe that it is important to you that Microsoft work to streamline the process, and what's even more -- I know you guys will.

    I can't wait for next week, when the "Where my phone update" will be updated, the carriers will get a nice goose and the whole process will get moving.

    Enjoy Windows Phone 7!

    AND THANK YOU, JOE!

    -e

  • Warnie, I second your comment.   Carriers should not have any control over the update process.  The current update process really worry all the involved parties include end users and developers (the only exception is the carriers since they don't really care as long as they can sell other phones (android and iphone ...etc) and get more contracts).  

    Unlike Andriod phones which advance users maybe able to bypass the OEM and carriers to get their fixes/update with the helps of hacker communities like XDA-developers.  Current WP is so lock down that we sees little chance to do so.

    Based on the current update mess, lack of features (no even comparable to the good old WM6.5), and the lack of promised frequent fixes/update.  I see no light in having an fully working device for me for the upcoming 6 months.  I already decided to cut my lost, sell my Samsung Focus and switch to Android.  But I still wish MS would correct the current mistake and be competitivie to the mobile OS market.

  • ChrisLynchChrisLynch

    I too appreciate Joe's response to some of our cries.  I cannot stress the point Warnie made.  I understand that the Carriers need some involvement, but only to certify a new device on their network, as they are providing subsidies to OEM's.  Hell, Verizon and AT&T subsidize the iPhone 4, yet Apple as all of the control in the world to publish their updates.  They have had this capability since day 1 of the original iPhone.
     
    Yes, this is Microsoft's attempt to fix their issues with maintaining a mobile OS.  However, Microsoft should be the only one that supports the OS.  The biggest reason why there is a Chassis 1 spec that all OEM's must adhere to is not just for a consistent UIX for developers, but so that the platform has a common set of components that eases OS development, patch releases, and drivers.  You, Microsoft, have given too much control to Carriers.  As many articles that have been written about this, WE the end users are your TRUE consumers.  Not the Carriers.  O2, AT&T, etc., should not have any ability to halt an update to Windows Phone.
     
    I would also like to know if Joe B or "management" has considered any possiblity of creating a Beta Test Group over on Connect.  If Microsoft wants to help reduce patch issues, no better way than to have a group of people register and you pick from the lot on who gets to Beta Test.  This is a common practice for almost all of Microsoft's products.  Heck, even the Xbox group has started to use Connect as a way to test dashboard updates.

  • abhimanyuabhimanyu

    why are people making such a ho-holla about the updates, if you have ever noticed android 2.3 which was released in may 2011 is still being rolled out, nodo was delayed because of pre-nodo fiasco..this is acceptable and all microsoft is saying about nodo is you will get the update within 10 days once your carrier accepts it. As for apple, well they only have 2 carriers in usa and around 10-15 around the world, they do there testing before apple even announces any update, so you hardly ever know when is it coming..with microsoft, its different, if they dont talk about the updates you people will again start shouting that microsoft is not listening and all....i mean seriously guys, apple took 2 years to listen to copy-paste, google is still not listening to any of you crying about lack of consistency....cmon, give these guys a bit of respect like you give to those working for google and apple....these people have affected or lives in more positive ways than those two can even think of...

  • SheedsSheeds

    @ Joe MSAppreciate the Channel 9 post/reply.  Good to hear the feedback is being received, acknowledged and to hear MS aim to improve engagement and support for early adopters.As for the Carriers - how can we be anything but cynical and disgusted when for eg, TELSTRA, the premium Australian WP7 partner and telco is still "in test" phase on the pre-update update (FEB) as well as NoDo - when in around 16 hours they launch for retail sale the HD7 complete out-of-the-box with NoDo updated WP7 latest OS.Surely that invalidates whatever conditions you could place on Carriers re: waiting on their approvals for push of updates.This situation is not acceptable - Carriers just saying FU to existing WP7 customers.

  • Joe - I really appreciate your reply.  I sincerely hope that you and the rest of the team can rally and surprise us all with how quickly you turn this update mess around.  I think it's fair to say that we need our collective confidence restored.

    Aside from your own internal issues, it seems pretty clear at this stage that your "partners" are doing you a real disservice at the moment.  I hope fixing that little problem is keeping some key people up at night too.  If Microsoft can't convince the carriers to do the right thing, then surely you can understand how powerless, trapped, and angry we're left feeling.

    Again, thanks for the genuine response... it goes a long way.

  • anonymousanonymous

    @abhimanyu: Paul Thurrott made some very valid comparisons between the pace of updates in iOS land vs. WP7.  See http://windowsphonesecrets.com/2011/01/18/software-updates-windows-phone-vs-iphone/ and http://windowsphonesecrets.com/2011/03/09/still-no-update/.  BTW, iOS 4.3.1 came out the other day.
    You can see the iOS update pace and their content at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IOS_version_history#Version_history:_iPhone.2C_iPod_Touch_and_iPad.
    As for Apple's "10-15" carriers + 2 in the US, I haven't counted up the uniques (and the definition is up for contention) but you can see where Apple is at http://support.apple.com/kb/ht1937.

  • Go Microsoft !!!!!!!Dovella Go Microsoft !!!!!!!

    @Joe Belfiore

    Im Ready for Beta Testing

    LG Optimus 7 , Vodafone Carrier (Italy)

    and I canget 10 more people willing  to slaughter their own device for testing bypass carriers.

  • WarnieWarnie

    @abhimanyu: You really can't compare Android's ecosystem to WP7s. Google isn't "listening to us" about consistency because they washed their hands of it.  Android has always put the burden of creating and delivering updates on the OEMs and carriers as part of being Open Source Software: OEMs and carriers are allowed to do whatever they want to the Android OS, and stick the OS on any devices they want, but THEY'RE the ones responsible for any and all updates. 
     
    The key difference here is that Microsoft adopted a more "Apple" style model. So they have 4 OEMs making handsets (Samsung, HTC, LG and Dell), but that means nothing when Microsoft mandated specific minimum hardware requirements and laid out all of the processes for microSD expansion within the OS and how the hardware should handle it. While they have different "features", my LG Quantum and someone's HTC HD7 are fairly identical. The only reason to do this is to avoid the pitfalls of Android; To be able to create software updates in a closed environment where the basic hardware ISN'T an unknown.
     
    Also, saying Apple only has two carriers is somewhat disingenuous. Right now, due to age, Apple has more hardware fragmentation than Microsoft. iOS has to support 4 generations of iPhones (iPhone, 3G, 3GS, 4), 3 generations of iPod Touch devices (they wrote off the first gen one, more or less, with updates) and 2 generations of iPad devices. Yet they're able to deliver updates at a brisk pace and without carrier interference.
     
    The way WP7 is designed, OS updates should only need to involve Microsoft and the handset OEMs. The OS itself, and updates thereto, is a matter of software interacting with integrated hardware and has almost NO bearing on the carriers. The pre-NoDo update didn't make my data usage spike on AT&T after I got it. The known additions in NoDo actually help keep the phone OFF OTA networks more than it impacts them (MAC address display, WiFi tweaks, and faster switching).

  • PolychromenzPolychromenz

    Given that I can take a new WP7 phoen running NODO and run it on any of these networks - where is the need for carrier testing?
    Then, add to that I can bring my phone and buy a sim and run it on most if not all networks without the need for carrier testing and where is the need for carrier testing?
    Now you buy a phone with Wp7 + nodo and jump on a plane and roam on any of these networks without a problem - where is the need for carrier testing?
    It is all rubbish - there is no need for carrier testing. Handset manufacturers - sure, carriers - no way.
    Even if carriers do need to test it would be a subset of the phone that got tested and even then it would / shoudl be a very mature set of tests by now that can probably be automated or at worse carried out in under a day.
    The need for carrier testing to take so long is a myth and given that pre nodo problems were with the deployment through Zune I'd love to know why the carriers would test pre-nodo and then retest nodo - doesn't add up to me.
    Glad to have input from Joe and that is very sincere and feel genuine but actions will speak louder than words. Despite the issues we all want WP7 to succeed but unless we can bypass the carriers we are no better of than Android.

  • Khaled ChebatKhaled Chebat

    When you get a handset through a contract with a Carrier, you get also the support through them; hence the need to get the Carriers on board ;)
    Carriers need to make sure their Support and Sales Channels are up and running with:
    1. Update Process itself
    2. Changes to Devices/OS
    3. Changes to Service Model (if any) + Carrier Apps
    So clearly this is not MS just playing 'too nice' with Carriers :)

  • Definitely need to cut the ties with the carriers involved in the "Update Process", We should be getting them directly through Zune without carrier interference. I think thats really the direct question we need answered right now.

    Why are carriers involved in this process and what damage can OS updates possibly do to their network, if any?

     

  • yfbcjwyfbcjw

    Nice to get a sincere reply; but it still doesn't help people like me who have an unbranded device with no update and no date for the update.
    Since i have a sim free HTC 7 Pro, which is the GSM version of the Arrive, then i have to ask the question: when the Arrive already has the update working correctly why i am still waiting when evidence shows that it works on the device?
    There is no need to throttle updates to this device at all; come on MSFT get it out!

  • IshaiIshai

    I keep seeing these comments about how Apple doesn't have to go through the testing process that Android and WP7 have to go through, I'm not sure what it's based on.
    I know some people who work for a european carrier, Apple goes through a similar testing phase, the only differences are that they have full control over the limited hardware versions that are out there for their devices and that they don't communicate any of it to anyone.
    Apple does their testing before they announce the update and make it available.
    MS is being more open about what is coming and when they think it will be there (delays happen, and sure, the only reason they are doing it is because at it's current state WP7 isn't ready for prime time)
    With Android, you hear about an upcoming version for a while, then Google releases the code but at no point does anyone tell you when or even if your device will be updated (My Evo is still waiting for the official 2.3 update or at least some news about it)
    I used to own an iPhone, the lack of copy-paste wasn't as bad as people made it seem. the real difference between how Apple and Microsoft handled the situation is that as soon as MS heard from people they really need it they change the priority on that feature and announced it will be available in early 2011. Apple never mentioned it until they did their annual iphone reveal.
    so MS is getting more complaints just because they are communicating with people. If they never mentioned the update until all carriers approved it and then did a launch event, no one would complain about "where's my update"

  • piaqtpiaqt

    re Joe Beliore: The longer the apology,the greater the bull. Just get NoDo out of carrier hell and on to the phones. Now.

  • @reader:What's the point of being colorful and you can't even use your favourite songs as the ringtone? And tell me, what's so colorful with the lame theme colors and no wallpapers at all?

  • @Ishai

    Most People aren't even upset about not having copy n paste, It's more about the bug fixes (more so with the Marketplace) that have yet to be addressed until that "NoDo" update or so i'm hearing. They should've found a way to seperate updates for bug fixes and adding new features and just push them out to the users without carrier interference.

    "Apple never mentioned it until they did their annual iphone reveal.
    so MS is getting more complaints just because they are communicating with people."

    Microsoft made the announcements but up until now they haven't communicated with its user base about the issues many have been having with their phones.

    I just hope to see some progression on this by this week.

  • Thanks for the reply Joe it is appreciated.  I bought my Samsung Focus the first day it was available.  I do love it and it is truly the best smart phone I have ever used.  That said it is in desperate need of an update.  Unfortunately it needs a lot more updating then Microsoft is currently talking about.  For example why is there no turn by turn direction in the maps app?  I could go on with what the phone needs to actually compete in the current market.  This is of little consequence since I never expect to see even the first update.  Just so it's clear Joe and Windows Phone team when a carrier (in particular AT&T) has an opportunity to test an update before it ships they will do everything in their power to stall the update indefinitely. It is not in their interest to ever release that update.  Also they do not care about the success or failure of Windows Phone nor do they care about their customers.  Trust me on the last point I've tried to deal with them several times.  It was a huge mistake to have the carriers touch the updates at all and now Microsoft is paying for it.

    Again it is a great first gen product.  Maybe when the second gen phones are released everyone will be able to finally get that update. And maybe updating will be out of the carriers hands.  Of course this assumes the phone survives that long.  Microsoft Kin anyone?

  • I think we need more transparency here.

    Firstly, where are the delays and what are the activities?  If this is a carrier test delay, what are they testing?  Their native apps on the phone?  Why don't iPhone updates suffer the same delays (they are largely globally synchronized, looks like the carriers don't get a veto).  Why are phone devices different to 3G enabled netbooks for example?

    My suggestions....

    The answer is to emulate the iPhone model more than the Android model.  Locking down the platform is the first step, but locking down for the users and not the handset OEMs and carriers misses the point - we still see the same delays with testing.  

    The best thing for the users is for Microsoft to use less OEM partners - we really shouldn't be cheering each time a new hardware partner is announced.  The carriers and OEMs are not interested in updates, they want to sell more units.  Will devices more than 18 months old ever get any attention from them, they would be spending money on encouraging their users not to buy new equipment or contracts. 

    The real answer is to move as much testing in-house at Microsoft as possible.  Change the SLA with the carriers - move support to Microsoft.   Lock down the API surface area.

    Also, use the community.  Roll out the update as an optional to all developer enabled handsets and let the community beta test it.  With all this time to market should be something closer to Apple's rather than Google's.

     

  • @Charles: I am not sure how informed you are as to the mess that is fast becoming WP7.  If you are not, then a casual cruise to the WP7 blog, comments section, will make it very clear.  If you could follow the history of everything I've written (private e-mails, comments sections, etc.) in response to this issue, you would see that I started very polite and, as the months have dragged on and MS has continued to skirt around people's complaints, I have grown more terse in my commentary.  Unfortunately, this is natural.  May I ask you a question?  If MS and Joe know that there are huge problems at play and we the consumers/supporters are demanding questions but they, instead, continue to either ignore us or give us carefullly crafted PR scripts to read through, are they being respectful to us and our time?

  • @Charles: First I would like to start by thanking Joe for taking the time to write a sincere, honest, and apologetic response to the questions and frusturations being posted here and at the Windows Team Blog.  I would also like to thank Charles for reminding posters to be civil and for facilitating this dialog with the Windows Phone Product Team.

    I am hopeful that in the coming days (and hopefully not weeks) the team can iron out the problems with this update and get it out of the door and into the hands of their users.  I am also hopeful that in the coming weeks the team takes some of the advice and criticisms being leveled to heart and addresses the deficiencies in the product roadmap as a whole.

    So, in the interest of furthering the spirit of "MIX as a conversation", and at the risk of sounding like a broken record, below are the major update and roadmap problems that I personally feel need to be addressed quickly in order to keep this product viable.

    1) Fix the broken update rollout process.  Updates need to be rolled out simultaneously or darned close to it.  Customers are rightly comparing your update process with that of your competitors, and the message is clear: Apple's small frequent update model works, Android's fragmented model does not and continues to be a source of frustration for their users.

    2) The Mango and future roadmap must change quickly.  I can not stress enough how important this is.  Many of us feel very strongly that the roadmap as it was announced at WMC and as it stands now is broken.  If the product had originally shipped with a feature set comparable to your competitors (Android and iPhone) or even to your previous mobile operating system, you could probably get away with two major feature upgrades a year and out-of-band bug fixes; but that is not the case.  What I would propose is this:

    • Immediately start breaking the Mango update into 2 smaller updates.  The first half of the Mango update could come in July/August and include multitasking and maybe Twitter integration; the second could come in November/December and includes IE9, HTML5, and other less pressing improvements and features.
    • Start, as quickly as possible, releasing monthly out-of-band bug fixes and application enhancements without the full carrier testing cycle.  From what I have heard these should at the very least include: International/culture issues, Turn-By-Turn Navigation, Skydrive and SharePoint integration improvements for Office, Remote Desktop, Skype, Zune improvements, and Facebook improvements.  These are features which your model prevents your developers addressing for you.  One of the big problems you face right now is that your roadmap does not give you the flexibility to address the problems and difficulties your customers are having.  Monthly OOB releases which do not impact the OEM or the carrier would fix this.
    • Do your absolute best to ensure that your legacy hardware is supported by your updates.  If there is a particular feature that is only going to work on newer hardware models, make sure that other models get every feature that they can support.

    3) There are multiple communications and perception problems that need to be addressed.

    • Updates should not be announced as shipped until they are ready to go out to all consumers.  If beta testers on "real world" phones are needed, Microsoft Connect is an excellent channel for this.  This will help keep the level of confusion and frusturation in check.  Noone wants to find out that their friend on Carrier A is getting the update next week but that they might never get it.  This entire step may be unnecessary if items 1 and 2 are fully addressed. 
    • It was tacky to plug the Kinect/WP7 integration at WMC while at the same time telling us that basic functionality like multitasking couldn't be addressed until the end of the year; if then, and that there are no plans for incremental updates.  There are so many more pressing shortcomings to be addressed.  Things like this leave me with the impression that Microsoft is more concerned with playing with their toys or coming up with the next selling point than they are with getting basic functionality into the hands of the people who are taking a chance on an incomplete product.
    • It was insulting to post the update schedule with no dates.  A schedule with no dates is not a schedule.  If you didn't have dates yet, tell us you are working on that and get them quickly.
    • The combination of Ballmer's presentation at WMC and this video really, really made the management team seem very out of touch with the reality on the ground.  At MIX, I would suggest you put more focus on what Microsoft is doing to remedy the current deficiencies of the platform and less on the "cool, but not important right now" stuff.  I am holding my breath and I sincerely hope that you will announce some serious roadmap changes at MIX.

    I think many of us are still very hopeful that these things can be addressed by you and your team.  You said it best when you stated that "I know at this point it’s our actions that matter".  Now is the time for action.

    Sincerely,

    A Windows Phone 7 Customer and .NET Developer who has given this alot of thought.

  • @holisticdetective: Thank you for the thoughtful post.

  • WarnieWarnie

    @Khaled Chebat: No offense, but everything you wrote about why the carriers need to be involved is laughable. First, your line about Sales and Support Staff needing to know these things is amazingly wrong.
     
    When my contract was up and I called to take my wife, son and mom off our family plan, AT&T had no issues with the coverage modifications side. I explained to the CSR that I was going to upgrade to a Windows Phone 7 over my iPhone and when she asked me why, I told her my old iPhone 3GS has become terribly SLOW. You know what she wanted me to do? Wait on the line while they transferred me to an APPLE SUPPORT LINE. Not an AT&T support line. When my wife had an issue with her previous Samsung smartphone (not sure what the OS was), repeated calls to AT&T directed her to SAMSUNG SUPPORT, not AT&T support.
     
    The Sales force doesn't need to know anything about the update. They're not going to say "oh yeah, this phone just updated to show MAC addresses!". Sales people sell on flash and pizzaz, not raw tech data. The only thing of interest to them in the NoDo update is Copy/Paste support, but they can find out what's coming in the update just like the rest of us - from Microsoft's pre-release notes.
     
    As for your individual points:
     
    1. Beyond the support and sales points made above, carriers don't need to know anything about the update process because it's pushed through software they have no control over, not over the air. If it was being delivered over their networks, I could see this argument having some merit as they'd want to know how much of their resources the update delivery would take. As it stands, the most their networks are involved with a WP7 update is in delivering a notification that tells users an update is available, and to please connect to Zune to obtain it.
     
     
    2. Unless changes to the device/OS are going to potentially cause a spike in data usage, why do carriers need to know more than the rest of us? I have yet to see an update to an OS, on any smartphone platform, that has caused data usage to jump immediately out-of-the-gate. The iPhone 3G did cause some issues, but not because iOS was retroactively delivered to all previous iPhones, but rather because the NEW DEVICES - which had already been signed off on by AT&T - had more functions requiring data usage.
     
     
    3. Again, carrier service model really doesn't matter since their support team does little to nothing. I am willing to bet if I called AT&T support with a problem with my LG Quantum they would direct me either to LG (for hardware issues) or Microsoft (for software issues) before they send me to their in-house "support" team to get a replacement phone. As for carrier Apps, that's just it - they're APPS, not an integrated part of the OS. Carrier APPS should NOT be holding up a core OS upgrade. It's fairly easy for carriers to update their Apps lock them through the registry (not that it will stop groups like  ChevronWP7 from reverse engineering them and making them available to dev-unlocked phones, which they do ALREADY).
     
    This IS Microsoft playing "too nice" with carriers. Carriers have zero vested interest in the update process because it's more profitable for them to stall the update and try to push customers towards a "newer" phone that HAS all the bells and whistles later.

  • @Agion @holisticdetective you guys ARE starting to sound like broken records.

    You're only going over the same ground that was covered before.

    Windows Phone 7 is still the best platform out there for consumers.   We have the foundation and need the rest of the floors built now.   As users and developers of the platform, we need to offer to help, not blurt on and on about how to fix things.   Do you seriously think that Microsoft doesn't have the same ideas?   If you've read the comments, you can see that everybody is asking for something different, and/or prioritizing differently.   This is a very precarious balancing act they are performing between users, OEMs, Carriers, and internal politics.   They have pledged to navigate it as quickly as they can.

    Let's see what happens next week.  It is Sunday, and everybody deserves some rest.

    WP7 team... send me an invitation to the WP7 update beta site.  I'll help all I can.

    -thanks and have a great weekend, and Enjoy Windows Phone 7.
    -e

  • @Agion @holisticdetective you guys ARE starting to sound like broken records.

    You're only going over the same ground that was covered before.

    Windows Phone 7 is still the best platform out there for consumers.   We have the foundation and need the rest of the floors built now.   As users and developers of the platform, we need to offer to help, not blurt on and on about how to fix things.   Do you seriously think that Microsoft doesn't have the same ideas?   If you've read the comments, you can see that everybody is asking for something different, and/or prioritizing differently.   This is a very precarious balancing act they are performing between users, OEMs, Carriers, and internal politics.   They have pledged to navigate it as quickly as they can.

    Let's see what happens next week.  It is Sunday, and everybody deserves some rest.

    WP7 team... send me an invitation to the WP7 update beta site.  I'll help all I can.

    -thanks and have a great weekend, and Enjoy Windows Phone 7.
    -e

  • @holisticdetective: Right on the money! i too have suggested in the Windows Blog page that now with this whole update fiasco messing up their initial roadmap, that "Mango" should be broken up into 2 updates and yes definitely Multitasking in the first half as it should improve sales and also development with apps in addition to just making the overall user experience even better.

    Hoping to hear some good news by this week.

  • @kitron:

     

    It isn't even so much the actual update that bothers me but the fact that Windows Phone 7 does not have a good update process. One of the selling points of the platform was universal updates.

    Microsoft pretty much invented the update process in technology and seeing how this division of their team handles such a thing is just mind boggling. I can't recomend it over the Iphone at this stage, I just don't trust this team and their abiltiy to deliver on their promises.

  • WarnieWarnie

    I'd love to hear the logic behind such a statement of "WP7 is the best platform out there for consumers".
     
    Explain to me how a device that lacks basic functionality that other smartphones had in late 2009 is the "best platform" for consumers. Explain to me how a platform that can't connect to MAC filtered networks (without using some other network to find the phone's MAC) and outright cannot connect to hidden networks is the "best platform" for enterprise consumers. Explain to me how a platform that contains what could be the industry-standard-setting Office integration, yet cannot do something as simple as local sync without using buggy Skydrive or Sharepoint, is the "best platform" for productivity consumers?
     
    So far, the only thing WP7 has done better than any other smartphone, in my opinion, is gaming. Great for gaming consumers. For everyone else, not so much.
     
    Don't mistake my critical comments for disdain of the platform or my phone. I like them immensely and want to see WP7 succeed. The problem is Microsoft has dug themselves into a hole and with each passing week the hole gets deeper. They had to come out strong out of the gate because many people immediately heard "next Windows Mobile" and laughed. They had to prove that they could deliver a better OS and better support. When it came to light that the OS was missing features every other phone had, they also had to prove their committment to timely updates. They've done NONE of the above, and all the people who were going "Windows Mobile/Windows Phone sucked" are now saying "I told you so".

  • CharlesCharles Welcome Change

    , Agion1 wrote

    ...

    May I ask you a question?  If MS and Joe know that there are huge problems at play and we the consumers/supporters are demanding questions but they, instead, continue to either ignore us or give us carefullly crafted PR scripts to read through, are they being respectful to us and our time?

    PR didn't have anything to do with Joe's reply. He typed it up and posted it on this thread himself (under an anonymous account given it requires 0 time to set up...). The formatting bug led to me just posting it on his behalf so you could read his reply in a more readable structure - with paragraphs... So, to be really clear: Joe typed up a reply and shared it here, not his PR team.
    C

  • @Charles: Obviously I did not mean to imply that Joe's reply posted above was scripted, since he had not yet written it when I posed my question to you.  My question was directed to your implied request for me to speak my mind respectfully.  I explained why I spoke tersely and posed a rhetorical question to you.  I believe MS and all thise invloved with WP7 are and have been aware of the frustration brewing among some of the most dedicated WP7 owners.  If they are aware of the situation and know the answers to the questions that we have but, instead, put spokespeople like Eric Hautala to the podium to either ignore or side-step our questions--all the while pretending that they are answering the questions--that is disrespectful.  There is no way argue otherwise.  

    I was happy to read Joe's reply and felt better hearing from him.  His enthusiasm won me over early and I hope he is sincere in his response and will push this all in the right direction, as best one man can.  He and others have put a lot of work into this platform and I don't think any of us want to see it fail. 

  • PhilPhil

    I sort of feel like I bet on the wrong horse again. I got my Mom a Zune and we both are on WP7. People look at her Zune and go "Whaa? What is that?" She really got pissed when our computer crashed and the music she'd paid for and downloaded could not be redownloaded and, on top of that, could not be retrieved from the device!! Customer service said "That's how it works." THAT'S HOW IT WORKS? You pay for something and *POOF* it's gone if you delete it. And forget about retrieving it from the device. I got smart and started syncing the music to SkyDrive. Why can't it do that automatically?
    I really love WP7, but more and more I wonder why I evangelize devices like Zune and WP7. Will this platform die under the weight of MSFT's own incompetence? Under the weight of carrier bureaucracy?
    It's clear they're working on the platform, but that's because I watch reports from things like the Mobile World Congress. Normal, non-enthusiasts don't care about that. Quick iterations get more attention from the lay-consumer.
    And why is MSFT kowtowing to these carriers? I guess either way many users are at the mercy of either the manufacturer or carrier. Why are these entities SO PUZZLED BY UPDATES?

  • PhilPhil

    And by the way, Joe, most people don't even have the February update. I had to erase my carrier ID through a registry hack just to get that. It's insane.

  • CharlesCharles Welcome Change

    @Agion1: I simply stated, for everybody - not anyone specifically - to remember to be respectful. It's something I've been preaching on these forums since we wrote them... Nothing more. Nothing less.

    C

  • @Charles: The problem I see that Microsoft has with Windows Phone is their partnership with AT&T (perhpas the others) which allows the carrier(s) to decide WHEN or IF an update is released to their branded phones.  The carrier(s) in this case will decide if first generation/early adopters will receive TIMELY updates. By the time this happens, newer, better hardware with the latest updates will be available and those who believe in the platform will pay up.

    I truly believe the delayed updates or "no updates for you" situation we face as Windows Phone customers is intentional. In my opinion, Microsoft is at the mercy of the carriers because they introduced the smartphone (correct me if I'm wrong) and had no answer to the iPhone for three years: losing large market share and negotiating power. And when Microsoft introduced WP7 it was lacking in features. I was disappointed in what was released to the market, but believed in the PROMISE and potential of the platform: believing the promise that updates would come directly from Microsoft. They do, but only if the carriers approve it, which was later vaguely alluded to.

    Now that it's obvious the CARRIERS ARE in control of the update release (Microsoft has done their part), updates will be few and far between; if not, non-existent until the next hardware release.

    So, I have a AT&T branded Samsung Focus (no commitment contract, paid full price) with memory expansion flaws (MAJOR disappointment and no discussion of fixes) and it is probable that we will not see TIMELY updates, if any at all unless we buy a new Windows Phone.

  • Go Microsoft !!!!!!!Dovella Go Microsoft !!!!!!!

    The real Windows Phone problem is with AT&T, not Microsoft http://t.co/VKmllO3

  •  

    you are a bunch of whiners!

     

    Microsoft put out a great phone os and all you have to complain about is "what have you done for me lately?"

     

    I know just a little of how hard it is to make something awesome, where there's really nothing to complain about.  but people just can't resist.

     

    I also know how hard it is to get updates rolled out and I say MS with this one exception has done great, has learned the lessons and will get this right very soon.

     

    good job team!

  • AlexAlex


    I bought my Samsung Omnia 7 in January with the hope that the operating system will evolve ... hopes that are ending.
    Apart from the issue updates, where there is confusion (I'm still waiting for the update, T-mobile DE) there are characteristics that seem to have been abandoned.
    The Facebook application that is equal for months without an update to IM, tile or toast notifications, at a speed of use; You can't enter the tags, delete items, and messages crashes. And is a Microsoft application! Incredible ... it seems that is not a project maintened and the user leaves a sense of disappointment. Defects that could understand early exit.. but not after six months, with the app almost identical. It takes so much to create a complete app? This seems like a Beta. Must talk about the Apple's Apps?
    The greatest thing in the operating system are the Live Tile that are not implemented even in Microsoft applications.
    Not to mention the deficiencies that users require aloud as custom ringtones, usb mass storage mode or camera settings are saved...

  • AdolfAdolf

    So ein Scheiß, ich werde mein Hd7 wieder zurückgeben und nie wieder ein Windows Phone nehmen............

  • PerspectivelyPerspective​ly

    @wp7dev007:
    Of course, the iOS 4.3.1. update is bug fixes only, not features such as "copy and paste," so it's not exactly comparable. 

  • PerspectivelyPerspective​ly

    @Dovella:
    "I can’t get why Apple releases a new firmware in the wild just to update even an icon set, teasing customers, without responding to anyone, while Microsoft needs to discuss every single patch they decide to include in any update."
    This is an easy one. These people don't want info from Microsoft. . . they want their software update, the one that brings the features promised LAST YEAR. Apple only makes one "promise" a year regarding iOS software updates, and it's when they announce the updated iOS version. At that time, they indicate a release window, and guess what? They make it. 
    Contrast that with here, where MS promised "early 2011" and then "early March" but has so far blown both deadlines representing it's first two "promises" to WP7 owners. This is the problem. 
     
    "but just keep in mind that customers do not need major releases to love a platform."
    True, but when you've promised features by a certain time, this is what happens. APple didn't promise copy and paste until right before its release, until they knew when it would be ready. How is it that MS has literally 3x as many employees (8x as many if we don't count retail), yet can't deliver on its own promises? It's not as if someone else forced these commitments on MS.
    "A bunch of small and frequent updates without any carrier interference should suffice to get more love from costumers."
    You always want to satisfy the costumers. 
    "Apple goes on always producing patches and fixes for wrong updates while customers silently agree."
    You're exaggerating. Apple offers patches as necessary. And, since Windows phone launched, we've seen iOS 4.2, 4.21, 4.29, 4.3, 4.31. Verizon iPhone customers are still waiting for 4.3 and 4.31, but globally they represent less than 5% of iPhone customers. Thankfully your comment clearly be seen for what it is: a seriously weak attempt to make MS look better here by downplaying competitors.
    The bottom line: don't make promises you can't keep, and if you end up breaking a promise, make sure it's not the VERY FIRST PROMISE YOU MADE TO YOUR CUSTOMERS. If MS wasn't absolutely certain they could release the copy and paste update in "early 2011" then they shouldn't have released that date. None of these people would be upset if they didn't feel as though MS lied to them just to make sure they still supported Windows Phone. Thus far, WP7 customers have been far better customers than MS deserves.  

  • DavidDavid

    Still not good enough, you should look at apple, hang your head in shame then work your * off! Don't say stuff like were excited for the future, just get the blody work done and into customers hands!

  • CurtKCurtK

    Well, the post from Joe is definitely a good first step, what we need more than anything is a dialog, not a mob ready to burn down the castle. It is amazing how just an honest post direct from the top lowered my frustration somewhat.
    I think to better serve everyone, these kinds of posts should continue (sorry Eric on the Windows Phone Blog) but Joe should do these. No matter what, you won't be seen as the official voice of this product after the PR spin of the last couple of weeks. We know Joe is the boss, we want to hear from him now. Yes, Joe's busy, but its time to save your product line. This has to be Job#1 at this point. You have a lot of angry early adopters that actually you can still turn around. Time to do it.
    The next thing is for you guys to figure out how to re-architect your update process, it's obvious carriers like AT&T don't care and will hurt you just as soon as help you. Get them out of the loop, at least on the majority of fixes. Welcome to our world, the carriers are awful. Don't make the mistake of thinking they're your customers. We are. They are a means to an end, plus, they're pushing your competitors products much harder than they push yours. Nice guys, huh? Every now and then we need the pre-2000 Microsoft attitude to compete agressively in markets you don't own.
    Lastly, you guys have to get out of the service pack mentality. You need small frequent updates, always something in the pipeline coming. Make this an exciting platform rather than a piece of tech that looks like its frozen in time. Mango should probably be 4 or 5 small feature updates rather than one. Slipstream things. Huge monolithic updates seem like they'd break more things anyway. You must figure out how Apple is doing this (they're on AT&T too). You guys are smart and update almost a billion PCs every month from hundreds of vendors, ISPs, and hardware manufacturers.
    I'm sure that post from Joe was hard to write, but that kind of honest unfiltered communication was worth 100 PR spin posts. That's what you need to do from now on. I think you'll be surprised at how much you can get this angry mob back on your side. You need evangelists, and right now they're all on these forums. Can you actually do it? We're waiting.

  • Thanks, Joe, for your response. 

     

    I like most of the posters here agree that it would be much more preferable to ship quicker, smaller updates (and bypassing carriers who drag their heals like AT&T) than ship huge updates once or twice a year.  If you are concerned about testing, I'll be more than happy to sign up to receive beta releases and report feedback.

  • Ken JacksonKen Jackson

    Joe, thanks for the response.  I'll keep my email short, but sweet, as I think the other reponses so far have been surprisingly pretty good and actually do reflect the general feeling out here.  These people, for the most part, aren't trolls, but the people who really want WP7 to succeed.
    Anyways, my feedback is simple:
    1) Don't give roadmap too far in advance.  The Apple model really works here.  When you do have roadmap, have dates.
    2) Rev fast.  NoDo hitting phones half a year after release is embarrassing.  Especially given how agile Apple has been (regardless of if you compare iOS to its initial six months or the past six months).  My hesitation buying a WP7 device isn't the current state of the device, but its velocity.  Apple and Android appear to be moving forward faster than WP7.  Why would I bet on the horse that is in last place, and seems to be running slower than everyone else?  But the last place horse that showed that it was gaining on everyone else -- that's a very different story.
    3) It's more important to ship a great phone than to be on a big carrier.  When Apple went with Cingular it wasn't because they were the biggest carrier in town.  But it was the carrier they could deliver what they wanted with.  The iPhone on Cingular/ATT becomes a blockbuster, but the iPhone on Verizon, with blocked updates quite possibly flounders its first year. With that said, this probably water under the bridge.
    4) Don't do a bunch of PR talk.  PR talk works in the enterprise space when IT needs to cover its butt to upper management.  In the consumer space it comes off as insincere. 
    Good luck Joe.  I really don't want to get the Evo 3D, so I'm hoping to see some real progress from WP7 over the next couple of months.

  • JulienJulien

    Joe,
    Could you please explain me why Apple manage to release iOS updates simultaneously in the whole world regardless of the mobile operator while MS is struggling to push a single update out of the door ? I don't buy the testing BS depending on mobile operators.
    And I don't get why MS can do patch tuesday every month on an incredible variety of PC around the world, and yet they can't release a single update aimed at 12 different mobile phones ?!
    Really ? Joe ?
    J.
     

  • ok, first...I like WP7.  I've got two WP7 phones and like them both.  The OS seems like a pretty good v 1.0 product, but wierd things happen all of the time when I attempt to start an app and don't have good network connectivity...most of the time, the app just abruptly exits without displaying any error messages telling me why the app has terminated...I'd suggest a bit more rigorous testing process prior to enabling an app to go live in the Marketplace.

    Regarding the current WP7 update process that will soon be forgotten about, you guys are really screwing the pooch on this one.  However, I'm seeing the update process as a symptom of a much larger problem at Microsoft.  There does not seem to be any ONE person in change who is capable of making WP7 a success for Microsoft.  Two examples:

    1. when I joined the developer program, I spent almost a week attempting to get the darn registration form to allow me to submit my developer information...turns out that your javascript page validation code had a bug in it that only happened when a developer filled out the form the way in which I was attempting to fill in the form.  The problem was that there was no one who supported the registration process...Microsoft assumed that it worked, and all problems with the process were to be submitted to the "forums", oh...wait...for...it...to access the forums, you needed to be a registered developer...go figure.  I called the support line and they verified the problem (they re-created the problem) that I was having and that I was blocked from getting to the forums (so that I could get help with the registration process)...but there was nothing the phone support person could do to help me (he was a very nice guy who was very sympathetic, but I was not looking for a shoulder to cry upon).  I finally examined the page source for the registration form (yep, forgot that I was a developer for a few days), found the error in the javascript page validation code and filled in the form in a way that would not trip the validation bug.  What is the point?  The point is that there was no one on the WP7 team at Microsoft who stepped up and was empowered to solve my problem for me.

    2. seems like the same thing is taking place in the "update" process.  In the incredibly sketchy video with the two Microsoft shill hosts, Joe says, "hey, my team did it's job, and we did a great job"...now, it's in someone else's hands to make sure that the updates make it onto our phones.  Ok, who's the responsible person that we should be communicating with if it's not Joe?  Also, come on, a VP who gets to say, "hey, it's not my team's problem...we did our job".  That certainly does NOT sound like one of the top 10%'ers to me (isn't that what you guys at Micrsoft call the top performers who get promoted to jobs like Vice President of WP7 development?)!

    So, is Microsoft going to do a better job once the Nokia relationship starts rolling?  I'm skeptical, based on an attempt I made recently to join the Nokia Developer LaunchPad program.  Silly Nokia...they announced that anyone in the LaunchPad program would be getting a couple of new Nokia phones (one Symbian C7 phone, and one WP7 phone once they become available)...and guess what, they got over 2000 new LaunchPad registrations over the next couple of days.  It turns out that the regular LaunchPad registration rate was one or two a day prior to their "free phone" announcement.  Oops.  Oh yeah, and the guy that processes the LaunchPad applications was "on holiday" for the week, so no applications were being approved.  I got an email (sent to all those waiting for Launchpad approval) on this topic last week (been waiting over three weeks now for LaunchPad approval) from a VP at Nokia, telling us that we are important to Nokia and that we need to please be patient with Nokia while they get our applications processed...so, again, what's the point?  Another big company, without a responsible person in charge who is able to take the bull by the horns and actually make "the right thing happen" in a timely manner.  Has Nokia ever thought of having someone (or maybe 3 or 4 someone's) help out the poor chap who is doing the Launchpad approvals?

    Why bring up Nokia?  Just pointing out that just because a powerful company named Microsoft pays another powerful company named Nokia $1,000,000,000 (ok, from what I hear it's slightly more than $1Billion over the next 5 years, but let's not quibble the minor millions) to start offering Nokia based WP7's...if Microsoft (and Nokia) cannot get their act together, especially for their developers...Will We Continue to spend our precious time and money making WP7 apps?  OR, will we rather spend our time and money making iPhone apps, making Android apps, making Palm/HP apps, making Meego (oops, that would be a mistake) apps...you get the picture?

    When you are playing catch-up, you have to play better (and consistently work harder) than your competitors...even if the problem falls in an area typically outside of your current job description.  And, from my limited perspective, you guys are lacking the cohesive leadership to make up for taking the last couple of seasons off from our favorite sport...great people without great leadership will not get you to the "winning" area (gotta love Charlie Sheen for the whole series of "winning" quotes).

    Wow, I cannot believe how worked up you guys have been making me for the past couple of months.  So, what can you do for me?  I think I'm your pretty average wanna-be WP7 developer (I've got a couple of WP7 apps currently in development) and here's what I think would be great:

    1. a developer installable flash image of WP7 for all of my "registered" WP7 phones. These images should be upgradable and downgradable at my whim, whenever I wish to re-image my phone(s).  This would be a great help for testing my apps when user's submit bug reports that only seem to happen on a specific device or with a specific version of the OS (moving forward).

    2. a list of WP7 resources (PEOPLE) with whom I can perform 1-on-1 communications at will who can actually solve my problems or who have direct access to the folks at Microsoft (and the carriers) who can solve my problems...all at NO COST TO ME.  There should be no "man behind the curtain"...get rid of the curtains and come out in the open to help us or to fess up to your failures.

    3. a much better price on developer phones and early access to the new WP7 phones as they come out.

    4. see a common thread?  give us a better developer experience and for low, low prices.  Yes, that means that Microsoft (and Nokia) need to make this a "strategic" direction and put significantly more resources to work in making WP7 a success for us all...make the WP7 development process an area in which you spend as much on developers (not just the top 100 developers) as you spend on those really cute WP7 television advertisements.

    If you made it this far and would like to talk in person, feel free to contact me at pixldncr@hotmail.com.

    Thanks...rick

  • Scott TeldoScott Teldo

    Lies...Lies...Lies. Where is my update?!?!?!?! I'm so frustrated with my Win7 phone. Never gonna buy a Win8 Phone.

  • Wow! Someone needs to book me a flight to the reality Belfiore is living in! People must even have Mango installed on their phones! He can't possibly be talking about us though, I mean...he just can't, right? Because, it's the end of March in my neck of reality, and refering to the nonexistent updates on my phone as "delivered" would simply be--not true.

    In all seriousness guys...stop taking a defense strategy and go on the offense. Consider us, your supporters, the nicest "enemy" at this point. But don't apologize to us, apologize to the damn Windows Phone dream, the one that is supposed to succeed and beat Google and Apple. Because right now, you guys are failing on every point that promised WP7 to be better than the competition.

  • Miguel CarrascoMiguel Carrasco

    The current update process has the potential to kill the phone...  Hopefullly somone at Microsoft is listening... Let me give you my current early adopter experience:
    1. First Samsung Focus Screen Cracked into a million peices in my hand. No dropping needed.
    2. Second Phone has an annoying issue where battery drains to nothing even when charged, and I have to pull the battery.
    3. Putting in SD Card to add space worked for a week, then destroyed my phone.
    4. First Update that came out destroyed my phone... I had to restore....
    5. Second Update still hasnt gone out... and still have no date.
    I don't appreciate the laughter and tone of this post like its a big joke when I am sticking my neck out there right now supporting this phone and I can't even tell people a date when an update comes out....  This is NOT FANTASTIC...
     

  • The current update process has the potential to kill the phone...  Hopefullly somone at Microsoft is listening... Let me give you my current early adopter experience:
    1. First Samsung Focus Screen Cracked into a million peices in my hand. No dropping needed.
    2. Second Phone has an annoying issue where battery drains to nothing even when charged, and I have to pull the battery.
    3. Putting in SD Card to add space worked for a week, then destroyed my phone.
    4. First Update that came out destroyed my phone... I had to restore....
    5. Second Update still hasnt gone out... and still have no date.
    I don't appreciate the laughter and tone of this post like its a big joke when I am sticking my neck out there right now supporting this phone and I can't even tell people a date when an update comes out....  This is NOT FANTASTIC...
     

     

    haaa this kinda sounds like peoples experience with early xbox 360s oddly enough (another MS product).  The early 360 owners woes typically went something like this: First my DVD drive stopped working, then my xbox wouldn't power on, then I had three red lights, then my DVD drive stopped working again, then I had etc etc. 

    Note: as far as I know the current xbox works great and I'm not trying to bash xbox hardware it just read like so many xbox related threads from a few years back.

  • GoodThings2LifeGoodThings2​Life

    @Joe Belfiore...
    I do appreciate your response to everyone's concerns. I'm an avid Microsoft supporter and have been using Microsoft products with pride for about 20 years. I REFUSE to buy anything Apple, and I've bought a Zune device at every release. I've previously owned only Windows Mobile devices, but I currently own an HTC EVO Android phone, because of the delays in getting WP7 to CDMA carriers like Sprint. Now that the Arrive is out, I'm waiting for my upgrade eligibility this summer, but I'm still not convinced that WP7 is the right platform for me yet.
    First, this whole platform has been too slow in coming, and I don't know how you can fix this. I do know one thing-- you need to tell the carriers to go "F" themselves and just release the updates. Start naming names. Just say it-- "AT&T is holding up the works, and this is what they're doing, but you know what? They missed their deadline for testing feedback, so it's time to move forward." AT&T (as one example) is particularly guilty of postponing updates to push customers towards other phones, and it does NOT serve Microsoft's interests.
    Second, you have got to start releasing smaller, quarterly updates (or quicker). Have part of the dev team committed to fixes, and part working on minor new features (like custom ringtones). I don't speak for everyone, but I'm sure a majority will agree... better at this point to have a small updates like NoDo with a collection of fixes and improvements than make everyone wait for big releases.
    Third, give those of us technical users an option to install monthly builds at our own risk as part of a beta team.
    Do I think the delays are your fault? No. Well, yes, but not exclusively. I do believe it's primarily with carrier delays, but that's what makes it your fault... you guys said it wouldn't happen, and yet it's happening.
    This is your biggest WP7 bug. Please fix it!

  • BeckBeck

    @Miguel Carrasco: You're kidding, right?
    [quote]1. First Samsung Focus Screen Cracked into a million peices in my hand. No dropping needed. [/quote]Sounds like SAMSUNG fu**ed this up, doesn't it?
    [quote]2. Second Phone has an annoying issue where battery drains to nothing even when charged, and I have to pull the battery. [/quote]Never heard of anyone else with this problem. Don't have it myself. Try something that is NOT Samsung, might be there battery.
    [quote] 3. Putting in SD Card to add space worked for a week, then destroyed my phone. [/quote]You are NOT SUPPOSED to put an SD card it!!! It even says so in the manual and on the Microsoft homepage! Windows Phones use a new technology! Old cards are NOT supported.http://www.microsoft.com/windowsphone/en-us/howto/wp7/basics/sd-cards-and-my-phone.aspx[quote] 4. First Update that came out destroyed my phone... I had to restore.... [/quote]Again, ONLY a problem with Samsung devices. Anyone seeing a pattern yet?So, looks like you should talk to Samsung about the trash they sell as phones and learn to read the MANUAL before shoving anything into your phone.

  • BeckBeck

    [quote]
    That quoting didn't work out so well, did it now? :)
    [/quote]

  • ChrisChris

    @neilspartacus: I am a customer and I am perfectly happy with the update situation. Do not presume to speak for everyone.

  • I just got NoDo on my Samsung Focus via the debranding/VPN-to-Hungary trick.  It it fixes the problems that I needed fixed.  My employer still uses Exchange 2003, and I haven't been able to search the GAL.  With this update, I can!  Now, to be honest, I am essentially completely happy with my WP7 phone.  I love the interface and I love the integration with Exchange.  The only thing that I feel like I am missing is the ability to set out-of-office messages from my phone.  So way to go MS, cya later AT&T.

  • http://www.microsoft.com/windowsphone/en-us/features/update-schedule-usa.aspx

    Folks,

    Check out the changes to the schedule.  It now says that AT&T expects the updates to be out of testing phase in early April 2011.  That's definitely a step in the right direction.

    Craig

  • Go Microsoft !!!!!!!Dovella Go Microsoft !!!!!!!

     

    Go Belfiore GO !! StandUp

  • , craig_marte​ll wrote

    http://www.microsoft.com/windowsphone/en-us/features/update-schedule-usa.aspx

    Folks,

    Check out the changes to the schedule.  It now says that AT&T expects the updates to be out of testing phase in early April 2011.  That's definitely a step in the right direction.

    Craig

    Don't forget the so called Feburary ship date was originally estimated to be in November soon after the phone was released (this is what Paul Thurrot was told at least), then it got moved to January, then to Feburary, then to first half of March, then to second half of March, now the first half of April.  The future estimated release date will be last half of April, then the 1st half of May then the second half of May.  Getting my point?

  • WurstsalatWurstsalat

    Microsoft is on the best way to fail hard with wp7...first i like wp7 much but the update * sucks so hard. Joe Belfiore said he is listening? I dont see it! Many many many branded devices didnt get the update right now...there is no realy reason why. If he listened, the update should be availible for all supported devices but no...
    Anybody told the ie 9 will be released mid of the year? Rofl i dont trust it and no other customer trust them
    mango will be released this year? Maybe on 31.12.2011....
    No customer believes you in any statement you give on the update (btw i heared something of custom ring tones in nodo, i dont see it) and this is why wp7 will fail hard -> this is bad for me cause i got an wp7 device.

    the whole situation can only: microsoft failed on anything they do with wp7...personaly i understand anyone who bought android/iphone instead of wp7 device and the falling market share is self made.

  • sebastian garciasebastian garcia

    let meknow whent you coming w w7PRO.

  • BobBob

    Where's the Asian language input? There are millions of people in Asia completely ignoring WP7 because it doesn't even do what their old non-smartphones from 10 years ago can do - save a contact name in the correct language.

  • LekshmananLekshmanan

    if joe ever reads this...
    I was a big time Microsoft fan... i loved all of microsoft's products... and purchased every one of them... this was the same with WP7...
    how ever.. now I REGRET... WP7 is such a let down... THE APP SELECTION SIMPLY S - U - C -K - S .
    MEANING... UNLIKE ANDROID, WP7'S API are closed/limited to developers... meaning developers cant acces most of the phones vital functions like messaging,etc.

    I REGRET HAVING WASTED MY CASH ON THIS IDIOTIC PHONE software...
    i m really sorry to put it this way...
    but MICROSOFT, i am slowing starting to loose intrest in you! ...

    (my advice: your only choice to survive this mobile phone market.. is to open up ur API, so that developers are interested on this phone, so that they can develop much better apps..)


    remember... WP7's market share is less than 1% comapred to ANDROID which is 40% ,
    if you dont take heed, we will see another KIN here!

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