Coffeehouse Thread

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Apples beats estimates - MS cuts 5000 jobs

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  • jamie

    Apple: 
    http://techblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2009/01/apples-first-quarter-financial.html

    MS:
    http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-10147922-56.html?tag=newsLeadStoriesArea.1


    Can we end the "turn windows into a Mac" experiment now?
    Can we have icons in our UI instead of text?

    Maybe youd sell more windows if 15 years of productivity wasnt replaced with paragraphs of text for newbies

    grumble grumble..

    *oops Apple - not apples
    (MOST forums in the world would let you correct that.)

    coffee....

  • rjdohnert

    Im going to assume you arent a big fan of the UI changes Jamie? Smiley

  • harumscarum

    ms!=apple, trying to compare the financials of these two is really not fair. Its been said many times here but again Apple sells hardware and MS sells software.

    I don't understand what you mean by experiment, ui/icons/text, and paragraphs of text.....

  • jamie

    rjdohnert said:
    Im going to assume you arent a big fan of the UI changes Jamie? Smiley
    whatever.  i have 7 still installed. i know how to "work it".  Im not afraid of change.

    i find many things changed are not improvements.  just more layers added.

    and my friends (all of whom USED to install the newest windows betas) wont go near 7 or vista.

    they "have work to do".   But all my friends are designers / musicians - with huge files.
    They use UP Tongue Out  no time to read.

    At least 7 is getting good press.

    PS - i get MAD when MS loses.  i actually do like MS. (go figure)

    PPS - they all have tried vista and removed it - and i have shown them 7 which they view as the same thing.
    Take that as you may.  But if you want more than 20% adoption this time - re-think the changes from xp to V/7

    surely i cannot be the only one who liked 95,98,98se,2000 and xp - of which vista and 7 hardly resemble/work like anymore. You may remember those versions. The ones that SOLD alot.


  • rjdohnert

    jamie said:
    rjdohnert said:
    *snip*
    whatever.  i have 7 still installed. i know how to "work it".  Im not afraid of change.

    i find many things changed are not improvements.  just more layers added.

    and my friends (all of whom USED to install the newest windows betas) wont go near 7 or vista.

    they "have work to do".   But all my friends are designers / musicians - with huge files.
    They use UP Tongue Out  no time to read.

    At least 7 is getting good press.

    PS - i get MAD when MS loses.  i actually do like MS. (go figure)

    PPS - they all have tried vista and removed it - and i have shown them 7 which they view as the same thing.
    Take that as you may.  But if you want more than 20% adoption this time - re-think the changes from xp to V/7

    surely i cannot be the only one who liked 95,98,98se,2000 and xp - of which vista and 7 hardly resemble/work like anymore. You may remember those versions. The ones that SOLD alot.


    I know buddy [pats jamie on back] I feel your pain.  It does seem they are choosing the Apple approach, and no Im not talking about the "dock" Im referring to the form over function approach.  You should set up a lab for them, install 7 on a box and let them come over and test their stuff.  It also allows you to hang out with the boys.  "The Jamie Grant Usability Lab".

    Yeah the news this morning kind of bummed me out.  I hate Apple right down to their core.  You know the Apple community and Linux community were cheering the news this morning.

    Anywho, hows your sister and the rest of the family?  Kids doing OK?

  • jamie

    rjdohnert said:
    jamie said:
    *snip*

    I know buddy [pats jamie on back] I feel your pain.  It does seem they are choosing the Apple approach, and no Im not talking about the "dock" Im referring to the form over function approach.  You should set up a lab for them, install 7 on a box and let them come over and test their stuff.  It also allows you to hang out with the boys.  "The Jamie Grant Usability Lab".

    Yeah the news this morning kind of bummed me out.  I hate Apple right down to their core.  You know the Apple community and Linux community were cheering the news this morning.

    Anywho, hows your sister and the rest of the family?  Kids doing OK?

    angies album is done. still working on website and album cover.


    PS - all of the above does have an easy fix (although you will say it is not easy)

    1.  In XP - if you wanted you could go to classic.  this is the biggest error that happened - no going to luna from vista.
    If people could just see a new windows that has the ability (ability) to look like a 3rd generation XP ui it would seem more familiar.

    If you notice in most published screenshots of 7 they are using blue as the main colour.  I bet it they used black like vista - or ..yellow etc it would not be getting the good reviews it has been garnering.  So Xp/luna  WMC/luna shiny  Vista/ Luna Glass (=wicked new luna)
    One down.

    2. Under start menu properties - OPTION to have All Programs flyout - across your huge screen to see everything in one glance (rather than in a little box)  Two down.

    3. Folder options: OPTION to display up in explorer.

    4. Quick launch and dragable desktop toolbars - add them back.

    5. OPTION  "View classic file copy dialoges"

    6. OPTION: Use classic taskbar.


    That would do it.  Now change - isnt forced.  Simple.

  • vesuvius

    Microsoft said the announced job cuts would take place in research and development, marketing, sales, finance, legal, human resources and information technology.
    According to the BBC, so anybody in the Developer Division remains safe. A company like Microsoft has a high staff turnover rate anyway, so in most cases, they will just not replace someone when they leave, and/or involintarily move people into new positions.

  • vesuvius

    jamie said:
    rjdohnert said:
    *snip*
    whatever.  i have 7 still installed. i know how to "work it".  Im not afraid of change.

    i find many things changed are not improvements.  just more layers added.

    and my friends (all of whom USED to install the newest windows betas) wont go near 7 or vista.

    they "have work to do".   But all my friends are designers / musicians - with huge files.
    They use UP Tongue Out  no time to read.

    At least 7 is getting good press.

    PS - i get MAD when MS loses.  i actually do like MS. (go figure)

    PPS - they all have tried vista and removed it - and i have shown them 7 which they view as the same thing.
    Take that as you may.  But if you want more than 20% adoption this time - re-think the changes from xp to V/7

    surely i cannot be the only one who liked 95,98,98se,2000 and xp - of which vista and 7 hardly resemble/work like anymore. You may remember those versions. The ones that SOLD alot.


    Jamie if you have a moment, can you post some images of what you mean please?

  • jamie

    vesuvius said:
    jamie said:
    *snip*
    Jamie if you have a moment, can you post some images of what you mean please?
    above updated.

    My take is simply that - like it or not - XP and luna have become this sort of brand / cultural icon. windows = blue and green. That's a good thing!  And im not saying people dont like aero.  But when something is as popular as XP - why remove most of it?

    ps - what would you suggest ms do to increase adoption of main products?

  • vesuvius

    jamie said:
    vesuvius said:
    *snip*
    above updated.

    My take is simply that - like it or not - XP and luna have become this sort of brand / cultural icon. windows = blue and green. That's a good thing!  And im not saying people dont like aero.  But when something is as popular as XP - why remove most of it?

    ps - what would you suggest ms do to increase adoption of main products?
    I must say that I agree with most of your gripes. Most of these are just common sense.

    1) A Glass Luna would have been great
    2) Just tried to find the classic menu in Windows 7 and it is not there, so that was silly
    3) I cannot beleive that has still not been rectified. they appear to want to reduce your mouse clicks, but their current design just creates more. I still do miss this
    4) Like option 2, users should have the option to configure things like before
    5) Yes for backwards compatibility
    6) Yes for backwards compatibility

  • Harlequin

    Microsoft would be more of a fat trimming I think. Lots of management they don't need. Not like any core devs are gonna go in the U.S. since we know the H1Bs have to go first.

  • W3bbo

    Harlequin said:
    Microsoft would be more of a fat trimming I think. Lots of management they don't need. Not like any core devs are gonna go in the U.S. since we know the H1Bs have to go first.
    The way Microsoft manages the layoffs will be an acid-test for its corporate culture. If they trim the proper fat and reduce excessive management I see a good future, I just have the feeling they'll just cut off the more expensive H-1B employees and loss-making groups and leave management to their devices.

  • jamie

    vesuvius said:
    jamie said:
    *snip*
    I must say that I agree with most of your gripes. Most of these are just common sense.

    1) A Glass Luna would have been great
    2) Just tried to find the classic menu in Windows 7 and it is not there, so that was silly
    3) I cannot beleive that has still not been rectified. they appear to want to reduce your mouse clicks, but their current design just creates more. I still do miss this
    4) Like option 2, users should have the option to configure things like before
    5) Yes for backwards compatibility
    6) Yes for backwards compatibility
    i think classic is in 7 somewhere  (cant find it again)

    but its luna back to classic
    vista back to luna back to classic
    thats the one thats missing

  • jamie

    except MS has never laid off 5000 before.  this is a first.

  • blowdart

    Ah so all MS needed to do to save their profits and jobs was to listen to one opinionated obsessive who really wants a mac more than anything else?

    Jamie, you realise your original post comes off as gloating somewhat? On a board managed by people whose jobs may be at risk or may be watching friends and colleagues pack up and leave today? Layoffs are not a suitable vehicle for you to push your UI agenda.

  • jamie

    blowdart said:
    Ah so all MS needed to do to save their profits and jobs was to listen to one opinionated obsessive who really wants a mac more than anything else?

    Jamie, you realise your original post comes off as gloating somewhat? On a board managed by people whose jobs may be at risk or may be watching friends and colleagues pack up and leave today? Layoffs are not a suitable vehicle for you to push your UI agenda.
    you have a better explanation for windows continuing loss of market share (and not just cause of netbooks)?

    love to hear it.

  • littleguru

    @jamie: what's your answer if I tell you that people tell me they don't know why to switch from Vista to 7 because there is NO change in the UI? I literally got: "it looks the same, why should I change, I'm happy with Vista"...

    @jamie2: I agree with you that the explorer could have more icons. I'm not a big fan of these endless lines of text either! Icons allow to quickly find stuff. You have me 100% here!

    @All: could it also be that apples marketing is just WAY better? Ipods and Macs have issues... but people don't seem to whine so much about then compared to PC users... is it probably that the Apple marketing is better to excite people so that issues are weighted less because of all the other cool features?

    @Win 7 beta testers: I filed the icons request. If you agree with me, please vote on it at https://connect.microsoft.com/windows7/feedback/ViewFeedback.aspx?FeedbackID=403872 - Thanks.

  • blowdart

    jamie said:
    blowdart said:
    *snip*
    you have a better explanation for windows continuing loss of market share (and not just cause of netbooks)?

    love to hear it.
    Aside from the expense of it, and the fact that the market is saturated and upgrades don't happen as often?

    Even so that's beside the point. It's tasteless to point a finger and laugh at people who have just had their life upset, either directly or by watching others go through it. It's thoughtless to do it on a Microsoft hosted forum.

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