Suzanne Cook - Developing the CLR, Part I

Gretchen wrote:Zippy - that's a really good question. You're right ... we do get a lot of people who apply for positions well beyond their experience and that's always amusing. Things like: "I believe that my 5 years as Lead Cook at IHOP has prepared me for the opening as the Director of Windows." And people are serious.
As for corporate spies ... wow, that's a good one. Honestly, I've never thought about that. Kinda like "secret shoppers," huh?
A couple years ago, it was trendy to make one of those human billboards that read "Hire me" or "Will Code for Food" and then stand on the street corner near MS. For some reason (and I have no idea why), I was the person typically assigned to greeting them and talking to them about Microsoft. Never a dull moment ...
Interesting not how I thought it would be. Nice insight.
phunky_avocado wrote:We recently had someone apply for a senior development position. She asked as a minimum salary of $150K!
variable wrote:What a load of crap. Like Microsoft's interviewing has some sort of science behind it. ...
I have been through the interview process several times. Once I got hired. During my 4+ years working there my average review score was 3.5. Managers said they had never seen anyone progress and get promotions as fast as I did.
So more interviews... Did I get hired again? NO! ...
So logically, how can this be? If the hiring process at Microsoft is not a pile of crap, why wouldn't someone who interviewed me see the value I have??
Microsoft interviewing is non scientific. Extremely flawed and nothing more than a cruel joke that Microsoft staff play upon their victims. They are on the inside. You are an outsider. Interviewers REALLY enjoy judging people and putting them in the hot seat. I think they are sadists.
Bitter? Me? Yes! I worked my * off for Microsoft and got rewarded in the end with a boot up my a**.
Chris,
If you ask just about any recruiter (and this interview with Zoe / Gretchen higlights this as well), you don't "need" a degree. I know many MS'ers who don't have degrees (including, ahem, Lenn here).
But, it definitely helps because ultimately you need to get noticed to get hired by Microsoft. No degree==less chance of being noticed.
Also, most MS job postings don't actually say "require". They say "preferred", which is a pretty accurate statement.
variable wrote:Bitter? Me? Yes! I worked my * off for Microsoft and got rewarded in the end with a boot up my *.
Can you say Open Source? How about Linux? Believe me. DO NOT come to Microsoft to interview unless you are a masochist.
variable wrote:What a load of crap. Like Microsoft's interviewing has some sort of science behind it....[snip, snip, snip]...DO NOT come to Microsoft to interview unless you are a masochist.
Working at MS is, and isn't, what you think.
I had a completely different view before I arrived here as a contractor then again as full time. MS is a big company, with big company issues, but it's still fun - the people help. The folks I work with are funny, creative, hard working and the best part
is they are all smarter than me at something - learning from others (and teaching them) is one of the highlights of working here for me.
Also, I have 9 hours of college - but most don’t make it a big deal (and most assume I do). If I wanted my managers managers job, then yeah, MBA required, but I enjoy doing my small part here.
I was offered a blue spot after 2 or 3 months of contracting here. While the pay wasn’t (note past tense, took a while to catch up, but worth it IMO) as good, the long term benefits are much greater. The interview went fine - the director scared me a bit, as did the SQL gal, other than that (yes, there was the old cliché of the guy who asks you a bunch of riddle logic questions), standard fare.
MisterDonut wrote:
First off, sorry about your loss of job. It's not fun when anyone "gets the boot".
But, there are a number of reasons people don't get jobs, despite being qualified for them. Probably the most important of which is personality.
The point being: There is a lot of science to interviewing and skills are just one aspect. Perhaps your tendency towards bitterness was showing through?
In _all_ cases that I failed in Microsoft interviews (AFTER I WAS A MS EMPLOYEE) it was due to not being able to speak like I write CS textbooks on any issue the interviewer brings up. I could have aced another interview if I remembered these simple words: “SQL Execution Plans” On the job I could have brought that to mind is a minute or so. In an interview the pressure kills.
The hiring manager that originally hired me into my Microsoft position said, “You were hired because you have proved that you can learn what’s put in front of you and you continue to learn.”
So I hope the non-equation is painted clearly enough here.
I got hired because I proved I had the right stuff in that I could and did continually learn what was put in front of me. I didn’t get re-hired because I couldn’t satisfy the interviewer that I know enough. Is that your interviewing science?
I'm not sure, but I don't believe any that I dealt with directly have been hired.
variable wrote:
One example: 2,2,3,3,3,5,5,6,6,9,9
Write a routine that finds the number in the above set that shows up an odd number of times.
In any organization, things are very clear
1. You need to upgrade and it has to be constant
coz, Changes are constant
2. If you say , you know something means YOU KNOW THAT THING WELL
3. Its typical of the interviewer to expect a hashtype, it needs no intellisense but a little presence of the sense.
4. Most behavioural interviews expect to judge your behaviours to find out whether you chicken out easily or you have a die-hard attitude or atleast if you are /can think in the right direction.
5. Last, the interviewer is human and no science can say how a person thinks.. Perspective still changes. So just becoz you had a bad experience does not mean their interview process is not scienthific.
Also, just b4 signing off... everything in the world thats a fact is scienthific (but whose perspective?)
open source has its pros and cons..
business wise - i dont recommend it especially to the non-techies..
Man,
It sounds like you are bitter. While I also question the "scientific" nature of an interview, I obviously don't feel as strongly about it as you do.
I think it is impossible to count on a lot of accuracy when people are involved. I have never been hired by Microsoft and when I was interested in a job, I never seemed to get past the phone interview. The times when I was not interested in relocating I would
get past the phone interview but decided against the day long ordeal. I have no way of knowing how it would have turned out. I always find it somewhat funny that my skill set changed very little in the phone interviews I failed and the ones I passed......
I have heard good things about the interview process, usually from people who got hired and I have heard the bad. For instance a
really really bright developer ran into an interviewer that seemed to be reading from a cheat sheet when asking questions. It became disconcerting for my friend because when he started to dig into the details of an issue it was obvious that
the interviewer had no clue about the particular area and when trying to work through the problem with my friend became flustered that he might actually be wrong. My friend never made it past that one person.
I am pretty sure he was qualified since the area in question was something he just finished perfecting on my team. Was he turned down because he butted heads with the interviewer.. Probably... Is he working on stuff he loves now... Yes... Life goes on.
I still think the root of the difference with interviews and hire and fire decisions are the people involved.
Hi KSG,
THanks for your reply.
It'l be interesting to know what exactly a program manager does. I have read enough descriptions/profiles but its still not clear to me as to how a program manager is involved in the software developement aspect of a product. Most descriptions say that PMs define feature set, hold meetings, manage timelines.. how are these things related to software development?
Do program managers build architecutres? As in lets say theres a certain product- Is it the program managers job to come up with a software architecture (class heirarchy etc)? Are they supposed to care about details like 'use recursion instead of iteration' kind of issues? Do they write/read/troubleshoot code?
Thanks!
goofy
One example: 2,2,3,3,3,5,5,6,6,9,9Are you sure about that? If only one number in the list appears an odd number of times, then a much more efficient solution than a hash table is simply to take the XOR of all the numbers in the list. I'd have assumed that's what they were looking for. It's not really like MS to test whether you know specific APIs.
Write a routine that finds the number in the above set that shows up an odd number of times. Do it _now_ without any reference. Do it while under the pressure of someone waiting for you to do it.
The interviewer wants to see you use a hash in the solution.
lars0,
I totally agree with you that being so picky with syntax just doesn't seem right from a MS recruiter, as mean as a recruiter can be. And also, where would the program end? Because, not remembering HashTable syntax would lead me to write a hash table from scratch.
There's simply no end to the stuff. Your XOR solution is so elegant, that I'm pretty sure the problem
did actually specify that there was only 1 number repeated an odd number of times.
I just finished watching all three videos for this sequence.
All three contained Very insightful and useful information I would say (on several levels at that).
Learning in general is a passion for me. Just recently I have taken up programming (I use a program that has the LUA language embedded in it, AutoPlay Media Studio 5 (Pro for me)). I maintain a Website for such issues (free projects for all to use). And, you can find me and a great bunch of other developers over at the Indigo Rose Corporation forums, day or night.
My day job covers telephone and in-person technical support for our services and the customer's hardware (usually their home based computer(s)).
As far as the interviews... I now take the stance that I am not going to try to impress the interviewer(s), but I will remember to try and stay relaxed... as when I am dealing with any given customer I work with currently. They just as well should see me as I usually am.
Now, does M.S. have any positions in Florida open? (Wink) Or, can one work from home for any of their positions?
My wife and I want to move to a warmer climate state (like Florida) sooner than later!
Well, that's my first post. I hope I can get the choice of either cookie or cracker! (grin)
thehelen.oftroy wrote:
Where is the next part ? i cudnt find it in this thread at least.
I had the telephone interview with the Hiring Mgr and was told to go to Atlanta for the actual interview. I told him about my visa(H1B) and he thought there was nothing wrong.
When I got the recruiter on the phone, we were planning the trip and told her about my visa situation which she already knew before, she said she'll check with the lawyers and never heard from her. Called her several times but never got any feedback. Nice way
(I mean very professional way) of ending the process!!!
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http://www.emicrosoftinterview.com has tonns of information which can be used to prepare for MS interview